The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes:
Flood, Fire, and Famine
in the History of Civilization
by Richard Firestone,
Allen West, and
Simon Warwick-Smith
Posted on 09/30/2007 10:14:28 AM PDT by baynut
A carbon-rich black layer, dating to 12.9 ka, has been previously identified at 50 Clovis-age sites across North America and appears contemporaneous with the abrupt onset of Younger Dryas (YD) cooling. The in situ bones of extinct Pleistocene megafauna, along with Clovis tool assemblages, occur below this black layer but not within or above it. Causes for the extinctions, YD cooling, and termination of Clovis culture have long been controversial. In this paper, we provide evidence for an extraterrestrial (ET) impact event at 12.9 ka, which we hypothesize caused abrupt environmental changes that contributed to YD cooling, major ecological reorganization, broad-scale extinctions, and rapid human behavioral shifts at the end of the Clovis Period. Clovis-age sites in North American are overlain by a thin, discrete layer with varying peak abundances of (i)magnetic grains with iridium, (ii) magnetic microspherules, (iii) charcoal, (iv) soot, (v) carbon spherules, (vi) glass-like carbon containing nanodiamonds, and (vii) fullerenes with ET helium, all of which are evidence for an ET impact and associated biomass burning at 12.9 ka. This layer also extends throughout at least 15 Carolina Bays, which are unique, elliptical depressions, oriented to the northwest across the Atlantic Coastal Plain. We propose that one or more large, low-density ET objects exploded over northern North America, partially destabilizing the Laurentide Ice Sheet and triggering YD cooling. The shock wave, thermal pulse, and event-related environmental effects (e.g., extensive biomass burning and food limitations) contributed to end-Pleistocene megafaunal extinctions and adaptive shifts among PaleoAmericans in North America.
This happened 12,900 years ago and it’s breaking news?
Catastrophism.
Is there a babelfish translation of this?
Bush’s fault.
Bush’s fault.
Wow! Great minds think alike!
Relatively speaking. /snicker
Stuff happens.
Saw a good program on History channel very recently about MegaDisassers, including impacts by comets and such and the residue left behind and other physical evidence of some pretty good hits..
This happened 12,900 years ago and it’s breaking news? Hell, that's not so bad -- it'll take longer than that for the MSM to get around to publishing any good news out of Iraq>
His ancestors were visionaries and worked hard at guaranteeing the demise of the democratic party today.
Don't underestimate the focus of the VRWC. LOL!
A cerbun-reech bleck leyer, deteeng tu 12.9 ka, hes beee prefeeuoosly identeeffied et 50 Clufees-ege-a seetes ecruss Nurt Emereeca und eppeers cuntempuruneuoos veet zee ebroopt oonset ooff Yuoonger Dryes (YD) cuuleeng. Zee in seetoo bunes ooff ixteenct Pleeestucene-a megeffoona, elung veet Clufees tuul essembleges, ooccoor beloo thees bleck leyer boot nut veethin oor ebufe-a it. Cooses fur zee ixteencshuns, YD cuuleeng, und termeeneshun ooff Clufees cooltoore-a hefe-a lung beee cuntruferseeel. In thees peper, ve-a prufeede-a ifeedence-a fur un ixtreterrestreeel (IT) impect ifent et 12.9 ka, vheech ve-a hypuzeeseeze-a coosed ebroopt infurunmentel chunges thet cuntreebooted tu YD cuuleeng, mejur iculugeecel reurguneezeshun, brued-scele-a ixteencshuns, und repeed hoomun behefeeurel sheeffts et zee ind ooff zee Clufees Pereeud. Clufees-ege-a seetes in Nurt Emereecun ere-a ooferleeen by a theen, deescrete-a leyer veet feryeeng peek eboondunces ooff (i)megneteec greeens veet ireedioom, (iee) megneteec meecruspherooles, (ieei) chercuel, (if) suut, (f) cerbun spherooles, (fee) gless-leeke-a cerbun cunteeening nunudeeemunds, und (feei) foollerenes veet IT heleeoom, ell ooff vheech ere-a ifeedence-a fur un IT impect und essuceeeted beeumess boorneeng et 12.9 ka. Thees leyer elsu ixtends thruooghuoot et leest 15 Ceruleena Beys, vheech ere-a uneeqooe-a, illeepticel depresseeuns, ooreeented tu zee nurthvest ecruss zee Etlunteec Cuestel Pleeen. Ve-a prupuse-a thet oone-a oor mure-a lerge-a, loo-denseety IT oobjects ixpluded oofer nurzeern Nurt Emereeca, perteeelly destebeelizing zee Loorenteede-a Ice-a Sheet und treeggering YD cuuleeng. Zee shuck vefe-a, zeermel poolse-a, und ifent-releted infurunmentel iffffects (i.g., ixtenseefe-a beeumess boorneeng und fuud leemiteshuns) cuntreebooted tu ind-Pleeestucene-a megeffoonel ixteencshuns und edepteefe-a sheeffts emung PeleuEmereecuns in Nurt Emereeca.
Here’s a good background article, gay state:
New Theory: Did a Prehistoric Comet ‘Kill’ North America?
http://www.santabarbaranewsroom.com/news/science-news/new-theory-did-a-prehistoric-comet-kill-north-america.html
They’re coming to take me away.
We're only talking 10's of thousands of years here.
The MSM must seeing a bit of light. ; )
Another repeat by The History Channel...
Neanderthal women and children hardest hit.
Not this time if the "Ankle Goddess" is in charge! /s
Another repeat by The History Channel...
—
True.. I’ve seen similar stuff on pbs and elsewhere as well..
ROTF!
You forgot "of color"...
Al Sharpton earned a free spat at you for that lack of compassion shown. ; )
It is He3, the same He3 some think they can mine profitably from the moon. Why bother with the moon when it's right here in the Carolina Bays?
Nat King Cole conveyed it best in song with his tune "Smile".
He must have been a conservative minded soul.
Explorer: Mammoth Mystery [TV-G]
Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 10P
Also airs: Monday, October 8, 1A Wednesday, October 10, 8P Scientists have long debated one of the greatest mysteries of science: What caused the sudden mass extinction of mammoths 13,000 years ago? Now, Explorer: Mammoth Mystery gathers a team of investigators who may have found clues to why the mammoths, which reigned over the landscapes of North America for more than 1 million years, suddenly vanished. Could the clues point to the biggest cosmic impact humans have ever witnessed? http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/ET/popup/200710072200.html
I don't think so.
Also Jimmy Carter is old, I don't think he's THAT old.
I don't think so.
Although Jimmy Carter is old, I don't think he's THAT old.
Disregard #27, the fingers are faster than their promoter!
Yoda translates: “ Of extinct pleistocene megafauna the in situ bones, with clovis tool assemblages along, within or above it occur below this black layer but not. Hmmmmmm.”
The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes:
Flood, Fire, and Famine
in the History of Civilization
by Richard Firestone,
Allen West, and
Simon Warwick-Smith
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Indeed it is a big deal. In geologic times, this happened yesterday! Some heavy hitters in the paleo business have gotten on board this train so look for the textbooks to be changing soon. VERY interesting stuff when you think about some of the ancient texts derived from oral "myths" possibly referencing some of these goings on.
Civ I don't know if you noticed, but the supernova/gamma ray burst/cosmic bombardment association seems to have disappeared -- or has it?
baynut, I ran through the article fairly quickly, so I many have missed something, but it still doesn't appear to shed any additional light on the origin of the Bays. I'll have to take another look at it this evening when I've got a little more time. Good post!
"After the year that has elapsed since the article was published, however, the authors no longer agree about the events theorized in their article. Firestone's reply is printed below. Topping declined to respond, pending new experimental data."
William Topping has responded, but not soon enough apparently to make the Mammoth Trumpet's cutoff, and if fact was never posted there. Found it HERE(much of his counter-rebuttal to Southon/Taylor's rebuttal has been included in the article this thread is based on).
I didn't read it closely enough to see where Firestone and Topping may have parted ways(if in fact they did); a little technical for an old salesman ;^)
Civ I don't know if you noticed, but the supernova/gamma ray burst/cosmic bombardment association seems to have disappeared -- or has it?Some years ago, there was a book in which the author put forward a model for K-T extinction due to supernova; I tried to get into it, but didn't find it compelling. I don't recall the author's name or the book's title, or anything that would be useful for this anecdote. Nuts.
Mark for later discussion.
The ORIGINAL ARTICLE(w/Topping) made several references to the liklihood(?) of a hit from a supernova. Conspicuously missing from the article cited for this thread along with another theory; that is, carbon dates, particularly associated with paleoindian dates, were quite possibly much too young -- by about 40,000 - 50,000 years. I gather that theory has been abandoned. Which MAY be why Topping is back in the references and cites in the article on THIS thread?
I was never very comfortable with that idea. I think they are on a better track with this current article. And, they seem to have some pretty good evidence.
No doubt; I honestly don't know enough about the "mechanics" of the theory to form an opinion on way or the other. That's why I pinged you to the article. From the looks of things, this may be the reason Firestone and Topping split the sheets -- at least for a while.
Did you happen to read Topping's COUNTER-REBUTTAL to see how well he defended their or HIS conclusions re the carbon dating "anamolies"?
There was a split; Bill Topping (I think that’s his name) first turned in the direction of an ET cause, but at some point (perhaps as the “new guy” added members to the team) parted company. :’) Not sure what you mean about 40K-50K too young for RC dates — the RC limit is around 50K, beyond which the level of 14C is too low. However, there were some 14C “spikes” which caused older stuff to appear younger, as the ratio was thrown off. That is discussed in the book. Other radiometric stuff is discussed as well. The earlier waves of bombardments are discussed quickly, but I suspect those will someday be fleshed out.
Thanks again:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/nucbtrev.html
[snip] As a factual matter there “is” a pattern to abnormally young dates in the Great Lakes region of North America. The sources for these dates were documented thoroughly, and clearly presented in the article. Among Paleo-Indian specialists (relatively few), this pattern is well-known. In addition, we discussed extinctions and mutations that are chronologically related, and based on evidence for prehistoric neutron flux most likely a direct result. “Depleted” Uranium 235 is caused by neutrons, and the excessive Plutonium 239 found in various Paleo-Indian artifacts also is attributable to “neutrons in prehistory” considering all available evidence. The genesis of 14C is neutrons (14N + n = 14C), and the fact that we have hard evidence for prehistoric neutrons necessarily means 14C had to have been produced both in situ, and in the atmosphere. [unsnip]
Redating North American sites
The 39,000 yr B.P. date proposed for the Gainey site is consistent with the prevailing opinion among many archaeologists about when the Americas were populated. It is also commensurate with dates for South American sites and with a Mousterian toolkit tradition that many see as the Paleoindian precursor. The proposed date for the Gainey site also falls closer in line with the radiocarbon date for a Lewisville, Texas, Paleoindian site of 26,610 ± 300 yr B.P.22,23 and radiocarbon dates as early as c. 20,000 yr B.P. for Meadowcroft Rockshelter.24 Since the Lewisville and Meadowcroft sites were likely exposed at the same time to thermal neutrons, we estimate that their dates should be reset to c. 55,000 yr B.P. and c. 45,000 yr B.P., respectively.
It is likely that Paleoindians occupied low latitudes during the full glacial and migrated to more northerly areas as the ice front retreated. Therefore the pattern of dates makes sense from the archaeologist's point of view. Dates for North American sites should generally be reset by up to 40,000 years, depending on latitude and overburden.
Geologists believe that before c. 15,000 yr B.P. the Wisconsinan glaciation covered the more northerly locations where Paleoindian sites have been found.25 The ice sheet would have shielded the landscape and any artifacts from an irradiation. (The Gainey thermoluminescence date of 12,400 yr B.P. is probably a result of the heat generated by the nuclear bombardment at that time, which would have reset the TL index to zero.) The modified dates for Paleoindian settlements suggest that the timetable for glacial advance sequences, strongly driven by conventional radiocarbon dates, should be revisited in light of the evidence presented here of much older occupations than previously thought."
THAT of course from 2001. I don't know if Topping and/or Firestone are still willing to defend his/their theory re the anomalous carbon dates, but some of that information has been included in the article at the head of this thread -- FWIW.
Ah, I see what you mean. Perhaps it was that issue that led to the split.
Impossible to say at this point.
Maybe Coyoteman will be able to get a look at the papers and share some insights.
I was never convinced by the explanation for radiocarbon dating problems in Great Lakes region posited by that early paper.
A subsequent article in the Mammoth Trumpet seems to be pretty convincing. This is: Update: Article Questioning Radiocarbon-dating Accuracy Draws Fire from Scientists.
The real meat of the article is Brief Comments on "Terrestrial Evidence of a Nuclear Catastrophe in Paleoindian Times," by Richard B. Firestone and William Topping, written by John R. Southon and R. E. Taylor. Firestone has a response following, but I think I would follow Southon and Taylor in this one. I don't know Southon, but Taylor has been at this for many years and is not known for going off on wild goose chases.
All of this is reinforced by the most recent article (Goodyear et al. 2007).
There still may be some problem with some radiocarbon dating in the Great Lakes region, but this article may hold the key to understanding just what that problem is.
The meteor or some other ET strike at about 12,900 years ago seems to be a good explanation for a lot of things.
I think these folks may be on the right track--they have a lot of data, and that's always a good start!
Yes indeed. So, from this I gather you would accept the notion that an impact/air burst from an errant space traveler could affect carbon dating? What little of the evidence I was able to understand seems to support that.
Another item; while doing some scouting around the web to see if there were other areas in the world affected by this event -- holy cow! Mega die-offs in much of the world of large critters INCLUDING the southern hemisphere, all at roughly the same time -- in all probability, a single event. This one was a biggie that seems to have been all but ignored until Firestone et al started making waves. Even at that it's been nearly 20 years since they began work on it, and about 6 years since their first publication.
Which all seems pretty odd when you consider this event occurred almost under our noses during what is generally considered historcal times. Some of our early ancestors actually lived through it! Must have been quite a show.
Yes indeed. So, from this I gather you would accept the notion that an impact/air burst from an errant space traveler could affect carbon dating? What little of the evidence I was able to understand seems to support that.
It just might affect some dates. There was an article some years back pointing out problems in just that area:
Lee, Robert E., 1981. Radiocarbon: Ages in error. Anthropological Journal of Canada 19(3): 9-29. Reprinted in Creation Research Society Quarterly 19(2): 117-127 (1982).Creationists have made a lot of hay by combining a couple of quotes (some 20+ pages apart) from this article into one quote, but it is possible the author was describing a real problem related to the ET event in that particular area. Creationists, of course, use this potential local anomaly to deny the efficacy of the radiocarbon method in general--but what do they really know about science, eh? (A little Canadian lingo there.)
Another item; while doing some scouting around the web to see if there were other areas in the world affected by this event -- holy cow! Mega die-offs in much of the world of large critters INCLUDING the southern hemisphere, all at roughly the same time -- in all probability, a single event. This one was a biggie that seems to have been all but ignored until Firestone et al started making waves. Even at that it's been nearly 20 years since they began work on it, and about 6 years since their first publication.
From the recent article (Goodyear et al. 2007), it sounds like they may really be onto something. The Younger Dryas could easily have been a large-scale event. I don't know that the original article's explanation is holding up as well.
Which all seems pretty odd when you consider this event occurred almost under our noses during what is generally considered historcal times. Some of our early ancestors actually lived through it! Must have been quite a show.
All of our ancestors lived through it! Otherwise, they wouldn't be our ancestors. :-)
The (Goodyear et al. 2007) article has a lot of quantitative data, and I think that theory is going to be hard to beat.
I know one of the co-authors and I'll see what I can pick up from him.
I did a quick search for recent articles with Al Goodyear and didn't find anything. Are you referring to the article from this thread, in which he played a part??? If not, a little help; I'd really like to see that.
All of our ancestors lived through it! Otherwise, they wouldn't be our ancestors. :-)
Ouch -- and we wouldn't be here!
I know one of the co-authors and I'll see what I can pick up from him.
Cool. Now I GOTTA hit the sack.
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