Free Republic

I blame it on the Austo-Hungarian empire who oppressed the Serbs, and for the moron prince to parade around occupied territory without much protection.

I wonder how America would react if, say, the Cuban secret service had a hand in assassinating G. W. Bush. If anything I blame the Austrians for not acting fast enough in July 1914 and letting this turn into an international crisis.
Also I think we've come to see Serbian nationalists and their myth that the Austrian-Hungarian Empire "suppressed" the Serbs (actually meaning: was in the way of establishing a Greater Serbia, later named Yugoslavia) in a different light since the Serbian genocidal wars in Bosnia and Kosovo. Serbia is much smaller today than it was in 1914.

I agree with you however that Franz Ferdinand was pretty reckless in parading through Sarajevo on Vidov Dan day (anniversary of the battle of Kosovo Polje, where the Turks destroyed the Serbian nobility).

The memorial to Gavrilo Princip (concrete footsteps in the pavement where he shot the archduke and his wife) is gone today, BTW. It was ripped out by Bosnians while Sarajevo was under Serbian siege in the early 90s...

thank you, fru.

No problem. One thing I don't like about Spiegel are their exaggerating headlines. The actual article usually tends to be a lot more careful..

Did you see their series titled "Anatomie einer Krise. Das Imperium americanum schlägt zurück"? I found it to be very informative about what's actually behind recent German-American irritations, from the German point of view.

Are you an apologist or a provacateur ?

I'm just trying not to read anything into this article that is not there.
Apart from that I feel like Germans have received enough bashing here. No need to dig up stuff that happened in the 80s when Saddam was "our bastard" to insinuate German large-scale weapons deals with post-1991 Iraq.

More interesting to me is the question: WHO is providing the Spiegel with this information? I guess people inside of the BND close to the CDU (opposition) worried about German-American relations are trying to step up pressure on Schroeder. But at the end of the day there's still nothing newsworthy behind this other than BND is and has been ultimately clueless as usual.

1. "With Germans Parts"

Where do you get that from?
The article expressly suggests the trucks Powell talked about are not identical with Iveco trucks delivered during the 80s. It doesn't say anything about German parts.

2. Regarding "BND knew":

LOL. It says BND had received "hints".

When was the last time the BND got to know something other than what American secret services tell them? BND is not doing much more than collecting paper clips - they're utterly useless.


Don't get too excited about this.

My point is: French, German, American, British, Russian et al. companies and/or governments all have dirt on their hands in respect to equipping Iraq for its war with Iran pre-Gulf War.
But digging up this old-ass story NOW to give the impression German reluctance to join another Gulf War has to do with hidden (economical) interests is simply disinformation.

Hans Branscheidt refers to an official German government report issued in 1991. This is 2003, as a reminder.
Hello everyone, we're talking about the 80s here! When Saddam was still on Washington's payroll, got bubonic plague and anthrax under license from the US Commerce Department and shook hands with Donald Rumsfeld.
What Germany and France have done to build up Saddam is insignificant in comparison to the American role.

Sometimes I wished people could think for themselves. *sigh*

Wonder why?

Could the Hammer and Sickle on the Austrian State Flag possibly be a clue?

It's not just hammer and sickle. It's hammer, sickle and "mural crown". The crown symbolises the burghers, the bourgeoisie. Those three go together and have nothing to do with communist insignia.
http://www.eurosesame.org/espagne/euroses0001/lboyd/Austria69/Coat%20of%20arms69.htm

BTW, I did some research and it appears the red in the Austrian flag actually symbolizes Muslim blood. When after the siege of Acre in 1191 (3rd crusade) Duke Leopold V of Austria took off his belt there was a white strip of cloth on his blood-soaked tunic.

But what are we going to make of the historical meaning of heraldic symbols? This discussion will lead us nowhere, unless you're interested in such trivia (which I personally am)..

Lesson in world relations:

Fact 1: Austria is in a legal position comparable to Switzerland. You wouldn't expect Switzerland to let any foreign troops move over its territory, would you?

The Austrian Neutrality Treaty of 1955, which was signed by Austria, the USA, the UK, France and the USSR, explicitly forbids any kind of Austrian involvement in or support for another nation's war efforts. This includes the clause that no other nation's weapons may pass through, or fly over Austrian territory.

Fact 2: Hence the Austrian government has to severly bend the legal situation to let any NATO troops move through at all. They've been pretending troops were UN troops on their way to Afghanistan, risking a serious rift over that in parliament.
When it was too obvious US planes were on their way to Kuwait, not Afghanistan, or US Stealth bombers tried to secretly sneak over in the radar shadow of an American tank aircraft those planes were incercepted and sent back. Such was the common procedure over the last years, followed by Austrian diplomatic protests because of US violations of Austria's neutrality. The USA is the only nation that has ever violated the 1955 treaty.

Fact 3: Austria has VERY bad relations with Germany, France and Belgium at the moment. Those were exactly the countries behind the diplomatic isolation of Austria 3 years ago.

Fact 4: Austrian Conservatives question neutrality, want into the WEU, possibly NATO - a move opposed by all other parties, and by the majority of Austrians we might say. Neutrality is a sensitive, emotional issue in Austria, comparable to the status of US Amendments.

Fact 5: Rumsfeld's decision to dramatize that complicated matter NOW that Chancellor Schuessel is in negotiations to form a coalition government shows that he lacks basic diplomatic skills and knowledge. It certainly doesn't make things easier for Austrian Conservatives.

I agree--boycotts have a way of backfiring.

Very true. Not many people here seem to realize how many Fords and Opels (= GM) are sold in Germany.

Great Britain already tried to muscle German industry round the turn of the 19th century (by making them print "Made in Germany" on their products). Guess what, it backfired.

Same problem today. The world associates German cars with quality, rather than American cars. In the end a trade war might only be benefiting German car makers.
GM and Ford are already struggling, losing the profitable German market would be a heavy blow for them. VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche on the other hand are making money. Lots of. They have enough resources to weather the storm and then just chrysler the remaining 2 big US car makers.

German consumers have already proven they know how to boycott if provoced (remember the Shell boycott a decade ago?), I wouldn't trust the American consumer on that.


Another point: this is the age of globalization. You can't just hit a single country's economy anymore by targeting certain companies. Big companies are multinational enterprises. Daimler has factories and suppliers in the USA, Japan, Hungary, Austria, the Czech Republic, Ukraine, Spain, the UK, Brazil and a couple dozen more countries.

Think about that before you blow German reluctance to back a, well, dubious war out of proportion..

Well, allies doesn't mean vassals. Washington will have to get used to that idea or the alliance is dead.

lol sorry, but Denmark??
What the heck has ever come out of Denmark except Kierkegaard, Tycho Brahe and maybe 2 other people noone has ever heard about?

Actually I think it's been the Germans who've been very generous in the past. E.g. they paid for most of the last Gulf War (together with Japan, Saudi-Arabia), which cost Germany roughly 10 times the amount they received as part of the Marshall Plan. So, after adjusting for inflation, I don't think Germans "owe" Americans unconditional support for a war they think doesn't make sense..