No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[Blzbba]

In that case, you should be watching him like a hawk in the first place.

right now, he's 9-mths old and is close to walking. Due to his crawling all over the place chasing his twin sister, I definitely am watching him like a hawk! You're probably right about the 'population at large' statistics. It just sickens me that a child would ever be abused by someone that he should inherently trust 100% to be a moral, upright human being, and who is not to be confused with some queerbait in a park or something. I mean, a priest should be the LAST person to commit homosexual perversion! As a new father, my reaction to crimes like these against children has certainly gotten even less tolerant than it was...and I've always been Draconian in my views on child crime & punishment. Thanks for your rational replies.

[Antoninus]

Why don't the men nurture the children religiously? Why is this role expected primarily of the woman?

Because we're lousy at it compared to women. Like it or not, women are hard-wired to rear children--especially young children. As much as I enjoy being with my kids, my wife's got it all over me hands down in that department. Those kids have a beautiful bond with her that they could never have with me. Do you have kids? Until you do, you probably won't understand.

Those who complain about the roles of women sound as absurd as if a man were to complain because he can't bear children and breast-feed.

[dangus]

>> tell me, do you have an English Language catholic bible? because at one time, Rome was opposed to that too.

In the old days, one was as likely to learn Latin as one was to read. There were abundance clergy to teach people what was contained in the bible. At the time the church did this, English-language bibles were used primarily as a means of promoting heresies by using mistranslations and taking scripture out of context. As literacy spread, bibles became more used for pious, personal purposes, and Rome encouraged English-language bibles.

[melsec]

You mean the latest Britney Spears video is appropriate for church use?

No I mean in doesn,t matter whether it is contemporary worship or traditional worship.

Mel

[Marysecretary]

I don't think God minds the drums and the music in our churches. He may actually have fun there. Anything done in reverence for Him is fine, even jumping up and down, spinning, dancing, all kinds of 'odd' things. If it's done in worship and is respectful, it's fine. If it's in the flesh, it's not.

[Antoninus]

Men and society don't love them or respect their abilities so they react.

If the reaction is to try to emulate all the wicked things that men do, then I'd say somewhere these particular "womyn" have gone off the rails. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[sinkspur]

I do believe that there is far too much criticism in the aisles from people who can't do any better, and who cripple those trying out of the goodness of their heart and in a voluntary capacity to present music to the congregation by chopping the music dept budget.

The same is true of criticisms of lectors, or of many of the volunteers who teach religious education.

When you confront the "bitchers" and ask them to come in and do better, they run for the doors.

I don't pay attention to gripers who just gripe, and think their money (which the volunteers also contribute) gives them carte blanche to snipe.

[TradicalRC]

Hats and veils! Tell me it isn't so! The horror...the horror...

[dangus]

>> Have you ever been in a church service where someone asked the congregation to lift up praise to God, and lot's of people share in a moment of praise by clapping as a form of recognition to God Himself?

Yes, that would be good, but that's not what the clapping I've seen in Catholic churches has been for. I should note that I've been to Protestant services where there was an enthusiastic preacher who'd insist everyone "praise God" whenever he made a joke or hit one of his big lines.

Both instances of clapping are absolutely unacceptable to me.

[Aliska]

No one is saying women are men's servants at their beck and call

No, they aren't saying it. They are acting as if they are saying it.

The rest are just words. The pope has a nun to see to his needs that most men in society have learned to do for themselves, like walking into an adjoining kitchen and getting your coffee (see Yallop's book on John Paul I). Priests in parishes have people waiting on them night and day. They need help. I know that. I wanted to be more helpful until I got the feeling that they take the help they get for granted. I had to pour coffee for one and my hand was shaking and he made a comment about it. I couldn't help it. My hands are usually steadier than that but he was a priest.

Those priests and the pope are only servants in the figurative sense. Reality is far different than that.

[Blzbba]

Altar boys have traditionally been a prime source of vocations to the priesthood.

Well, that's not working with altar boys either, as none of the 20 or so altar boys I grew up with (self included) became a priest. I know this: The not-so-recent-been-happening-for-awhile string of sexual abuses and homo perversions by a few priest will seriously harm the growth of altar boys, who will now have some parents preventing them from even becoming altar boys. Think 'Soccer Mom' here and you'll see the over-protection I'm talking about. If you have a problem with the all-male priesthood, I suggest you take it up with Jesus.

I talked to him last night about it, and he said it's no big deal. :)

[dangus]

You only expose how much hatred and immaturity is in your heart.

[Desdemona]

Well, at one time anyway, the Catholic church in all art forms was about high art. There is still a body of work unparallelled anywhere dedicated to the church. I am one of many who would willingly give the gift right back in all its God-given glory, but you have to understand it's no longer welcome. Well, it might be after this document comes out. We'll see.

By canon law, we are only supposed to use organs and the music is supposed to be beautiful. By those standards, not many Catholic parishes hit the mark.

And, BTW, I've always been more interested in singing in church than commercially. That was my original intention, but it seems I'm too good.

[Antoninus]

Why is it everyone is so eager to put me down because I don't think exactly like the rest of you, but no one, not one, is willing to admit that some of what I say is true?

Hey, if you're going to come on here and take cheap shots at the Catholic Church, don't play the victim when people hit you back. It's just so whiny and pathetic.

[conservonator]

What's your point?

You asked for an example, I gave you one.

[Blzbba]

Where are the scandals, the lawsuite, the depraved priests, the coddlers? In the *liberal* diocese.

That very well may be. But the exposure to all this negativity hurts the Church everywhere, as well as the calling to the priesthood of young males. I'm sure you'll disagree with that last sentence, but neither of us will know for another 10-20 years, when the results of these scandals and their effect on young boys today who choose not to participate in church service due to fear of homo priests (irrational or not) will be felt.

[Koblenz]

ARTIST: Tom Lehrer
TITLE: The Vatican Rag


First you get down on your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your head with great respect
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect

Do whatever steps you want if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff
Everybody say his own kyrie eleison
Doin' the Vatican Rag

Get in line in that processional
Step into that small confessional
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original

If it is, try playin' it safer
Drink the wine and chew the wafer
Two, four, six, eight
Time to transubstantiate

So get down upon your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your head with great respect
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect

Make a cross on your abdomen
When in Rome do like a Roman
Ave Maria, gee it's good to see ya
Gettin' ecstatic an' sorta dramatic an'
Doin' the Vatican Rag

[malakhi]

In Arlington diocese, the worst sex scandal was a priest having coffee with a 24-year-old woman.

Is that so?

ARLINGTON DIOCESE RACKED BY SEX SCANDALS

"In January, 2000, Nancy Lambert became pregnant with the child of Fr. Verrechia while still married to Jim Lambert."

That was one strong cup of coffee.

Priest Quits After Porn Accusation

"The pastor of a Roman Catholic church in Fredericksburg has resigned after another priest accused him in a court deposition of having gay pornographic videos and photos in his rectory bedroom."

Perhaps he drank coffee while he viewed his collection.

Whistle-Blower Priest in Trouble With Diocese ARLINGTON (VA)

"Father Haley is being punished for exposing corruption," said Stephen Brady, president of Roman Catholic Faithful. "It's clear that the church hierarchy in this country is in meltdown. A bishop can do practically anything and remain in good standing. Meanwhile a priest blows the whistle, and he's persecuted."

I have a Catholic friend who lives in the Arlington diocese. His wife's family has been very involved with church activities and functions there over the years. What I've heard from these "inside" sources confirms the published reports.

[TradicalRC]

Okay, are you willing to go along with what Scripture proscribes in other areas as well? According to St. Paul women should cover their heads.

[Aliska]

How much "power, honor, and glory" did she have?

A LOT! People still gush over her. And look what she had to do to get there. Almost be superwoman. She is an exception. In her later years she had other people doing the hard things and she was more of an administrator and went on the lecture circuit.