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No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn
Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 09/23/2003 7:50:20 AM PDT by presidio9

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.


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To: Aliska
--It all boils down to brain chemicals working properly. If your brain chemicals are fully charged, you don't care if fairies fly over the altar during mass. You only care about those things when you are depressed and crabby.--


Thats very interesting. You describe a medical problem and blame the church . Your personal problems won't go away because the church and God don't tell you what you want to hear. I've done a lot of wrong and feel guilty when I am guilty. If the church makes you feel guilty, but you've done no wrong, your issues are bigger than you want to realize. Its really very easy to follow God and to seek forgiveness when you go astray.
341 posted on 09/23/2003 11:10:04 AM PDT by fml
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To: Aliska
Your use of the word "womyn" shows your contempt for them as is evidenced by many posters on this forum, including even women who march lock-step with the men.

I am a Catholic even before I am a man. If your womanhood comes before your Catholicism, I'd say that you have your priorities a bit out of whack.
342 posted on 09/23/2003 11:11:18 AM PDT by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces †)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Have you noticed the number of men who do the same? Especially college students?
343 posted on 09/23/2003 11:12:28 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD is still in control!)
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To: Aliska
No.
344 posted on 09/23/2003 11:12:43 AM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: Aliska
Umm, the church puts you on a never-ending guilt trip. Nothing you ever do, nothing you ever think is good enough to please their God. We sin when we get up in the morning, we sin all day long, we sin when we go to bed at night. It is not sinful to be human and to think and feel things others don't think and feel.

That's absolutely right! And still he LOVES us, isn't that Amazing?!?! You have never known love until you have truly offended the one you really don't want to alienate -- and he chooses to reconcile with you anyway... because he loves you. I have had someone demonstrate this for me in real life, and it's the most inexpressibly amazing thing to go through. It truly does make you want to dance sometimes and just act plain goofy because you have no other way to express it. (I'm getting a lump in my throat now, thinking about it!)

Speaking of our sinfulness, it's all right in the Bible just like that. Only you're only getting and therefore relaying half the picture! And that may be for whatever reason... sometimes when the church is even faithful at preaching it, people have a hard time believing both parts because they feel like they have to DO something to earn God's love... did our babies have to earn our love when they were born? No!

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD . "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. " Isaiah 1:18

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

"I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with loving-kindness.
I will build you up again
and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel.
Again you will take up your tambourines
and go out to dance with the joyful."
Jeremiah 31: 3, 4

"The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing." Zephaniah 3:17

I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety ­nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. Luke 15:7

"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate." Luke 15:17-24

[John the Baptist speaking - the last known prophet] "He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie." John 1:27

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:10-14

And many many many others....the theme which comes out is not that we should expect to be perfect, but that we should proceed in a direction more and more like Christ, and having a personal loving relationship with him, closer than with the ideal spouse, more tender, loving, and nurturing.

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:6-11

"In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us." 1 John 4:17-19

"What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? ?Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died – more than that, who was raised to life – is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:

"For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
" Rom 8:31-38

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything." 1 John 3:16-20

If you have guilt, take it to the Lord, cry and accept his forgiveness as many times as it takes for it to sink in to your heart, and don't take on any more guilt that doesn't belong to you. It's very hard to learn to do this, for most people, yes, but it is a healthy thing to do. The Lord forgives abundantly, if you truly wish to be in fellowship with him, but remember that his forgiveness has little to do with how YOU feel about the sin or how others feel about it. I don't think he even requires us to formall confess every unconscious sin we may partake of, but confession of those we know of does us good.

345 posted on 09/23/2003 11:12:45 AM PDT by Terriergal ("And no, I don't sing off pitch, either...")
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To: Blzbba
>> No, you take a hike with your outdated ideas that have brought nothing but scandal, lawsuits, and depraved 'priests' who are coddled and sheltered from justice. It's time the Vatican join the 19th century.

Where are the scandals, the lawsuite, the depraved priests, the coddlers?

In the *liberal* diocese. In Arlington diocese, the worst sex scandal was a priest having coffee with a 24-year-old woman. In Washington, it was a priest kissing a woman 25 years ago. Go to the heretical dioceses with all their liberal innovations: Boston, Richmond, Chicago, Wisconsin, Rockville Center (Long Island), Los Angeles, Pheonix. That's where the abuse cases are coming from.
346 posted on 09/23/2003 11:13:09 AM PDT by dangus
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To: presidio9
But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

The author didn't finish this sentence.......

".......a traditional recruiting ground for priests..... to find little boys to molest."

347 posted on 09/23/2003 11:13:37 AM PDT by NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
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To: Aliska
I think, dear Aliska, that you have been going to the wrong church. Not all churches do that. Look around for a loving congregation. They're out there.
348 posted on 09/23/2003 11:14:11 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD is still in control!)
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To: Marysecretary
I love to dance, especially ballroom. Musicals, in high school was my favorite, but it has no place at Mass. None. Afterwards, on the front steps of church, at rallies, fine, but not at Mass. That's not why we are there. The whole being is to be trained in concentration on scripture and the Consecration. That is the climax. Anything that takes away from that total and complete concentration needs to go.
349 posted on 09/23/2003 11:15:02 AM PDT by Desdemona (Kempis' Imitation of Christ online! http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imitation.html)
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To: Desdemona
The first English translation of the bible was Catholic. The Douey-Rheims. Yes, it's still in print, thanks to Tan Books.

Douay-Rheims Online

350 posted on 09/23/2003 11:15:37 AM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: Desdemona; All
Actually, there were some earlier English translations. Most were incomplete. Some, unfortunately, were either inaccurate or heretical. These latter the Church attempted to suppress. I found this to be in interesting and readable (although not scholarly) accounting of the history of the Bible.
351 posted on 09/23/2003 11:15:54 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard
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To: dangus
We've had times in our church where we are moved to clap to God. There have also been times of long silence when He speaks quietly to us. The Holy Spirit moves in different ways,through dance, clapping, silence, music...it's important to recognize His presence in these different avenues.
352 posted on 09/23/2003 11:17:39 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD is still in control!)
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To: NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
Did you really think 346 postings had been made and no one had said anything bigoted yet?

It's been done. Cripes, these bigots are getting stupider.

SD

353 posted on 09/23/2003 11:17:44 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: miss marmelstein
That practice is called a May crowning and is still celebrated enthusiastically at many of the more conservative parishes, certainly it is to be found in our Rockford diocese.

As to the quality of singing, I know a fellow who was born with cerebral palsy. He attends a very reverent Novus Ordo Church in the city where we grew up. Every Sunday at Mass, he raises his voice enthusiastically singing the hymns. Alas, his voice is uncertain and often offkey but nonetheless powerful and heard throughout the Church. When first I heard him sing, I wished he would not sing or at least be more quiet. I thought it over and realized that his voice was not raised for my entertainment but for the praise of God (would that my Faith were as fervent as his) and for the praise of the God Whose plan somehow included that the man be born with cerebral palsy. That man's love of God must be particularly pleasing to God. That man "gets it" as to the Faith more eloquently than many of us. It was a privilege and an inspiration knowing him before I moved to the midwest. He works in a modest restaurant job and gives that his all as well.

354 posted on 09/23/2003 11:17:48 AM PDT by BlackElk (Schwarzenegger is as Republican as his wife's Uncle Teddy or as Barney Frank)
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To: Campion
What have I said that makes you think I'd ever do such a thing? Gracious! I am a member of this family, whether it's convenient or not. I should be allowed to point out difficulties and shortcomings without being considered divisive or vindictive. Would it be better to remain silent, so more can suffer? God rejoices in repentance. So should we all. It's the correct response to sin, and it's the first step towards health.

Look, dear family, I have more reason to be bitter and jaded and horrified at the acts of the Church leaders than most. But, it's not about them, it's not about Liturgy, it's not about me or my pain, or what I want. It's about life and relationship and Truth...and what He wants...a broken spirit and a contrite heart.

...and I need to be first in that line.

355 posted on 09/23/2003 11:17:55 AM PDT by January24th
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To: Podkayne
Regarding altar girls: (1). Surveys over the years have found that as much as 85% of Catholic priests began as altar boys. One can gauge the commitment of a parish to priestly vocations based on their commitment to altar boys. (2). We are witnessing the feminization of altar servers as more and more boys view the flood of girls descending on this service at the altar. (3). I believe that there are only two dioceses left in the U.S. that do not permit girl altar servers, one of which includes the diocese of Arlington, VA, whose new bishop permitted girl altar servers when he was a bishop in Ogdensburg, NY. (4). In my parish our pastor does NOT permit girl altar servers and there is not a lack of boys to serve; if a parish really desired priestly vocations, it would be easy to find boys to serve.

Therefore, the lack of altar boys simply reflects the fact that most parishes place equal rights for girls above the need for priestly vocations that are often influenced by serving at the altar.
356 posted on 09/23/2003 11:17:58 AM PDT by passive1
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To: Desdemona
If someone is going to be a commercial artist, I agree they should be proficient. But I don't think that's what church is all about.

Heart is not all there is to it. There are those who seem willing that also will not take instruction -- that to me is not "willing" at all.

I do believe that there is far too much criticism in the aisles from people who can't do any better, and who cripple those trying out of the goodness of their heart and in a voluntary capacity to present music to the congregation by chopping the music dept budget. (no we are not paid, just for music supplies and such). Or they will complain about the 'sound balance' when they refused to put in an adequate sound system when budgeting for building expenses. Those people's criticisms I just let roll off.

357 posted on 09/23/2003 11:17:58 AM PDT by Terriergal ("And no, I don't sing off pitch, either...")
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To: Marysecretary; Aliska
I wish I had said that. I guess I was one of the less loving type - ouch. Sorry.
358 posted on 09/23/2003 11:19:31 AM PDT by fml
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To: SoothingDave; NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
It's been done. Cripes, these bigots are getting stupider.

I'm not sure that's possible.

359 posted on 09/23/2003 11:19:54 AM PDT by presidio9 (If [the French] are providing passports, I’m going to ask for Pellegrino)
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To: presidio9
In that case, you should be watching him like a hawk in the first place.

right now, he's 9-mths old and is close to walking. Due to his crawling all over the place chasing his twin sister, I definitely am watching him like a hawk! You're probably right about the 'population at large' statistics. It just sickens me that a child would ever be abused by someone that he should inherently trust 100% to be a moral, upright human being, and who is not to be confused with some queerbait in a park or something. I mean, a priest should be the LAST person to commit homosexual perversion! As a new father, my reaction to crimes like these against children has certainly gotten even less tolerant than it was...and I've always been Draconian in my views on child crime & punishment. Thanks for your rational replies.
360 posted on 09/23/2003 11:21:20 AM PDT by Blzbba
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