No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[ArrogantBustard]

You might say I'm a dreamer.

Now that you mention it, those were some awfully strange looking mushrooms in my moo-goo-gai-pan.

Can anybody tell me where those dancing, multicoloured teddy bears came from, and what they're doing behind my back? Every time I turn around to look at them, they disappear.

But I KNOW THEY'RE THERE!!!!!

[dangus]

>> I'm one of those Catholics who stopped going to Mass because the silly pop music and hand holding makes my stomach turn. Don't jump to the conclusion that I simply drifted away, because the whole while I'm paying expensive Catholic school tutions for my kids and I read the Tidings paper. My kids work at the Church office.

Please don't let temporal, annoying triflings keep you away from Christ! Consider it a share in his cross to put up with those ninnies, but don't let them keep you from the His Presence in the Eucharist!

[Snuffington]

The above illustrates perfectly the sick pattern of the post-Vatican 2 papacy. Issue all kinds of directives, but then insert loopholes so that no one has to follow them.

Very true. This is a problem with those who occupy high Church office at this time.

However at the parish level there are pastors and litugists who have no concern at all about forcing their entire congregation to change the way the celebrate Mass on a regular basis to try out the latest innovation. Not much leeway given to loopholes either. You generally are expected to go along or find another parish.

[B Knotts]

Yeah, that's true...with the Real Presence in the Host, I suppose there is no real reason to take the Precious Blood.

But like you said, I don't see why taking both is a problem. Certainly we know they did at the Last Supper.

[beelzepug]

"Next thing you know we will all be wearing hats and veils again."

Amen to that. And a jacket and tie wouldn't kill the men, either. While I truely believe I have a friend in Jesus, he is my Lord, not my buddy. I leave the Bermuda shorts and aloha shirts at home n Sunday mornings.

[Desdemona]

Because God doesn't really care about your musical talent, when your heart is right with Him?

As a highly trained musician I am going to argue to the wall that it doesn't seem right to me that people are willing to pay upwards of $250 a ticket to hear a Mass at a symphony concert when that same Mass was composed in order for everyone to hear it in perfection for free. It belittles the time, effort and energy so many put into perfecting the art to suggest that heart is all there is to it.

No, I don't sing off key. AND I have Queen of the Night notes. Higher actually. A four octave range that is only worthy, appearantly, of the symphony and protestant churches that pay.

[Varda]

I apologize if I was abruptly terse. I've attended many different churches and all follow their own traditions. The Catholic Mass is not a vehicle for individual expression. We are members of a body and we're
required to hold to the traditions that have been handed down to us.

"I could worship in a way that helps you into the presence of God for the time He is there"
What you don't seem to understand that it is not just about worship, it is about communion. When one takes the eucharist into ones body one is taking the Lord into ones body. He is not there for a time, he is there always. You walk out with the Lord, one in body, one in spirit. During the mass we are in the real presence of the Lord . This is a time when heaven and earth come together when all the angels and saints and the bride of Christ past present and future sing in unison Hallelujah,.... and in this moment, I for one don't like to be distracted. Also if you have a modicum of understanding about what's going on, you can't help but be changed by it. It is truly a glory.

[Marysecretary]

Yes, for heaven's sake, do stop the moving of the Holy Spirit. He's not welcome in so many places. When we all get to heaven, we'll be worshipping our Father with songs and timbrels and dance.

[JohnnyZ]

I just don't get it. If you want to be treated well and like a lady, act like one. It brings out the best in men. At least, that's been my experience. That means no treading on their ground.

From my dating experience I find that if a woman is coarse I'm more likely to act like a jerk (I do, sometimes, despite efforts to the contrary) but if a woman acts like a lady she'll find me to be a real good - respectful - man.

[johnb838]

there's no requirement that the joyful noise be on key

If you can sing well, sing for thanksgiving. If you can't, sing to get even!

[Desdemona]

I have some sympathy for the people who wedge in Mass between games and sessions of sporting events. On tournament weekends, you go when you can wherever you can. No letting down the team is allowed. Some leagues around here actually have Mass in the middle of all of it, just so people have a chance to go.

But at noon on Sunday at the Cathedral when you are a college student? Ah, get dressed, please.

[Aliska]

Most women do not call themselves "womyn" -- those who do (generally radical lesbian feminists)

I'm not a radical lesbian feminist. I am a divorced, mentally ill, catholic convert female who is sidelined in church and society. Because I have need of therapy, that puts me in the untouchable category when it comes to having any meaningful insights into the human condition. I only referred to myself as "womyn" because I can relate to their outcast status. I hate that word and it makes me angry when I see it used. It is only used in a derogatory manner.

[Aliska]

Uh, yeah.

Are you totally devoid of the ability to see how things might be for others?

[JohnnyZ]

That's all I'm asking for. A change in attitude. Not in the way things are done.

I think you're attacking a straw man. No one is saying women are men's servants at their beck and call. We're just saying men and women are different and have different roles in many instances. For that matter, you might recollect that priests are servants of their parish, and the Pope is the servant of all, but these servants are curiously regarded by the secular world as the ones "in power" and "in charge".

[Antoninus]

Regardless of what the men say, it doesn't change the reality that women are only good to be workhorses and child nurturers while the men get all the power, honor, and glory.

Women seeking "power, honor, and glory" would make horrendous priests. Think of Mother Teresa. How much "power, honor, and glory" did she have? And yet, I would argue that in her poverty, disease, and filth, she was the most powerful woman on Earth.

[Desdemona]

tell me, do you have an English Language catholic bible? because at one time, Rome was opposed to that too.

The first English translation of the bible was Catholic. The Douey-Rheims. Yes, it's still in print, thanks to Tan Books.

[Marysecretary]

Well, dear Aquinasfan, are you? (smile)

[beelzepug]

"Nobody has ever said that the Mass is supposed to be "spontaneous praise"..."

We do have a gentleman in our Anglican congregation who will give an "Amen" occasionally during a particularly good sermon and the priest smilingly accepts that as an affirmation of a job well done. I'm not offended; envious, maybe.

[Desdemona]

That being said, does anyone out there remember the old Catholic school tradition held every May of placing a crown of flowers on the head of a statue of Mary and singing the immortal "Bring Flowers To the Rarest"?

YES!!!! And we still do it.

I actually sang that at a funeral once of someone who loved the May Crowning.

[dangus]

>> Umm, the church puts you on a never-ending guilt trip. Nothing you ever do, nothing you ever think is good enough to please their God. We sin when we get up in the morning, we sin all day long, we sin when we go to bed at night. It is not sinful to be human and to think and feel things others don't think and feel.

>> It all boils down to brain chemicals working properly.

It is sad that you feel that way. I did not realize you had given up Christianity altogether and now profess abject nihilism. Or maybe you're just feeling crabby. We all do from time to time. Did your therapist not teach you that although we *are* sinners and we do sin so very often, God is a loving God who died on the cross to pay for our sins, and that the sacraments are a Way out of sinfulness? No, I'm not surprised she didn't.