No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[moodyskeptic]

I'm one of those Catholics who stopped going to Mass because the silly pop music and hand holding makes my stomach turn. Don't jump to the conclusion that I simply drifted away, because the whole while I'm paying expensive Catholic school tutions for my kids and I read the Tidings paper. My kids work at the Church office.

I watched the transition from the front row: I was in Catholic high school in 1970 when the nuns took to the hippie ethic and priests were testing the gay waters with the new openmindedness. It was all wrong, and it got worse for years.

Drum kits and clapping and dancing are fine for the Prots. They can have it. I miss the days of stately classical music in Mass.

[Antoninus]

They can't get enough boys to serve and the girls are more punctual and reliable.

That is beyond bogus. In our indult parish, there are between 4 and 8 altar boys available for EACH MASS. Why? Because the parents and priests of the parish actively encourage boys to become altar boys. It's a mark of honor, not a chore. Meanwhile, at the NO parish that I often attend, the altar girls obviously rule the roost. Out of the 20 or so altar servers, perhaps 5 or 6 are boys. Like it or not, boys at that age don't want to be associated with anything run by the girls. It becomes something "sissified."

I think you would have to make serving mandatory and institute a military style draft to get enough boys to serve.

Baloney. A faithful, manly priest who actively recruits boys (and only boys) and involves their parents will attract a good number. I've seen it happen.

Next thing you know we will all be wearing hats and veils again.

Heaven forbid. BTW, there's nothing more attractive than my wife if a veil....

This sounds like the work of "silly old poofs" who think they rule the world.

No, those would be the silly old poofs who insist on having girls prancing around the altars. The priests who are real men know that altar boys are the future priests of the Church. Several of the former altar boys at our indult parish are now in seminary. Can you say that about any of the servers at your parish?

[dangus]

>>Sounds very much like the Taliban.

Give this person an award for the most ignorant statement of the month!

[JohnnyZ]

Your use of the word "womyn" shows your contempt for them as is evidenced by many posters on this forum, including even women who march lock-step with the men.

I find your attitude unwarranted. Most women do not call themselves "womyn" -- those who do (generally radical lesbian feminists) and who come at the Church with guns a-blazin' are not welcome in the least. The poster's meaning was very clear in that regard.

[johnb838]

I think it's due to what I call the "ru gittin any" society that continually bombards people with the message "If you're not having sex, you don't have a life... you're nobody". An awful lot of societal problems can be traced to that.

[maryz]

Hopefully Catholic policies on the differing roles of men and women in the Church will drive away the womyn who come to the Church to get some "power, honor and glory."

Sounds good to me! Then if we can only drive away the men who come to the Church to get some "power, honor and glory," things should look up considerably!

[presidio9]

No, but a huge amount of the sexual perversions of sick, protected-from-law priests involved altar boys. Personally, I don't want my son becoming one and if he chooses to be one, I will watch over him and the priest like a hawk.

In that case, you should be watching him like a hawk in the first place. Priests are actually less likely to be pedophiles than the male population in general. And, of course, the vast majority of priests are the best moral role models a young boy could possibly have.

[Marysecretary]

Liturgical dance is a beautiful way to worship. We have a dance team made up of children and adults who worship this way. It's majestic and moving. One woman, who has devoted her life to this kind of worship to her Heavenly father, often uses veils to dance with. It's very powerful. I'm not talking about hootenanny here. I'm talking worshipful, reverent dance. God is restoring it to the churches.

[Aquinasfan]

We celebrate Gods sacrifice and Jesus' revival...

There's nothing wrong with doing that at your service, if that's what you want to do. But as has been stated earlier, the essential nature of the Mass is that Christ's sacrifice on Calvary is made present through the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. Hand-clapping is simply out of place, particularly applause for the choir director, etc.

Secondly, the Mass is full of singing. We sing, read, stand, kneel and sit in unison as an outward sign of our inward unity as the mystical Body of Christ. The Mass is not the time for private prayer or devotion. There's plenty of time during the rest of the week for that.

Finally, I find the general Protestant emphasis on Easter to be wrongheaded because life for most of us is not an Easter experience. Most of us suffer. Christ tells us to take up our Cross and follow Him. Nevertheless, the Church prays, "Come Lord Jesus!" We look forward to His coming again in glory. This too is expressed in song during the Mass.

[Marysecretary]

Me either. If any of our pastors saw that in the church, those kids would be on their way home to change. Fortunately, our kids are pretty decent and modest.

[Antoninus]

It's either fear, ignorance, or a sense of overblown importance. Altar girls are harmless modernizations of the Mass and nothing more.

No, it's not. Altar boys have traditionally been a prime source of vocations to the priesthood. Hence, when you replace them with "altar girls," that source dries up. For a nation with a "priest shortage" you'd think the bishops in the US would be doing whatever it took to encourage vocations, not trying to strangle them in the cradle. Of course, if you know any of the inside politics of the Catholic Church in the US, you'd know that there are certain bishops whose mission in life seems to be the destruction of the all-male priesthood.

If you have a problem with the all-male priesthood, I suggest you take it up with Jesus.

[AnnaZ]

2 Samuel

Chapter 6

 

12: And it was told king David, saying, The LORD hath blessed the house of Obed-edom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God.  So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom into the city of David with gladness.
13: And it was so, that when they that bare the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.
14: And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15: So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
16: And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

[dangus]

>>I guess this means no Sister Act III.

Any church that would prevent another Whoopi Goldberg movie must be the true church. :)

[January24th]

...I'm pretty sure my doctrines won't save anyone. Let me check. Yep!

In actual fact, I am a supporter of the "form and function" of worship. I believe that being on one's knees has a direct affect on the heart. I believe there is a purpose and beauty in the Liturgy and I believe it should reflect the change of the seasons and cycles of life as well as the regularity with which those changes come. I believe the Liturgy is the great re-telling of the ancient Truth. And I believe it is an integral part of the Faith.

I don't believe, however, that doing it "just right" by anyone's standards (not mine alone!) or trying to define it down to the nth detail is what is important. I'm really not against whatever distant powers-that-be want to tinker with or uphold in this matter.

I'm just disheartened that the Vatican, after so much sin has been brought out into the light, hasn't issued a call to its leadership for fasting and repentance. Hasn't called on leadership worldwide to kneel before God and beg forgiveness and restoration. Hasn't set a good example for the sheep, but continues to hide in political posturing.

I guess Peggy Noonan's recent experience with the Bishops and her report on what she saw and heard there, leaves me less worried about clapping and dancing in holy places and more concerned for shepherds who hide while wolves devour. I pray for these leaders, for the Lord says they suffer greater punishment because of their position of authority.

Indeed. There's really very little, corporately, to clap or dance about.

[Aquinasfan]

Mother Angelica this morning on EWTN said exactly the same thing.

Now that she's "gone," I'm beginning to fully appreciate the singular nature of her spiritual gifts. She was simple, yet very, very wise. I miss her a great deal. I prefer her homespun wisdom to even the great work of Bishop Sheen and Fr. Rutler.

[Petronski]

Nothing you ever do, nothing you ever think is good enough to please their God.

Uh, yeah.

[Snuffington]

Offering the Mass according to the rubrics? Putting Tabernacles back in the center of the Sanctuary where they belong? An end to the army of "eucharistic ministers"? A correct and complete translation of the Order of the Mass?

< singing > You might say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one... < /singing >

[SoothingDave]

Have you ever been in a church service where someone asked the congregation to lift up praise to God, and lot's of people share in a moment of praise by clapping as a form of recognition to God Himself? It has happened hundreds of times to me in lots of places. I understand that we recognize the efforts of someone or a group to sing a song or perform something--clapping is a cultural recognition of their effort--can't it be the same for God also?

I think it's been put forth very clearly, I don't understand what the problem is.

The Catholics here are talking about inappropriate clapping directed at other people, not any clapping that may be directed during Protestant services towards God.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the purpose of clapping when the youth group's success in raising money from selling donuts is applauded. It isn't praise of God.

Likewise, clapping when the choir finishes singing is inapproriate. The choir should be leading the congregation in singing to the glory of God. The choir does not require applause, and should eschew the very idea of being the object of attention during Mass.

That is what is being talked about. And it should be stopped at Catholic Masses. If Protestants want to clap as a means of praise, that is fine. But inappropriate clapping for people is never kosher during Mass.

SD

[Marysecretary]

I wouldn't mind wearing hats and gloves again to church. It was kinda nice. But, then I'd have to wear a dress, wouldn't I? Hmm, I don't always do that.

[Campion]

I'm just disheartened that the Vatican, after so much sin has been brought out into the light, hasn't issued a call to its leadership for fasting and repentance. Hasn't called on leadership worldwide to kneel before God and beg forgiveness and restoration.

And if they had, would you be in the long line of posters on a thread just like this one saying, "What useless, superficial grandstanding for public consumption! Fasting and repentance ... indeed! Harummph!" ??