Posted on 09/07/2003 6:36:06 PM PDT by nobdysfool
Yep.
I would submit that God's knowledge of His elect is much more intimate.
I agree, simple but also personal.
BigMack
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' [NAS95, Mt 7:23]
I agree, simple but also personal.
Ok, I understand where your coming from at this point. What is your view of God's action as a result of this knowledge? What does God do when he predestinates?
Sorry, no can do...
Rom 9:12-24 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
My Bible says He did chose, not just "know", and He did decide whom He would save, not just let them decide for themselves.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified [Rom. 8:29–30].
“For” refers back to verse 28 to remind us that he is not talking about anybody being elected to be lost, but he is speaking of “the called,” the predestined ones.
Predestination never has any reference to the lost. You will never find it used in connection with them. If you ever hear someone talk about being predestined to be lost, you know he is not being scriptural.
Predestination means that, when God saves you, He is going to see you through. Whom He foreknew, He predestinated, and whom He predestinated, He called, and whom He called, He justified, and whom He justified, He glorified. In other words, this section is on sanctification yet Paul does not even mention being sanctified. Why? Because sanctification is the work of God in the heart and life of the believer. This is God’s eternal purpose. It just simply means this: When the Lord—who is the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, the Good Shepherd of the Sheep, and Chief Shepherd of the Sheep starts out with one hundred sheep, He’s going to come home with one hundred sheep; He will not lose one of them.
You may remember that the Lord gave a parable about this, recorded in Luke 15. There was a shepherd, a good shepherd, who represents the Lord Jesus. One sheep got lost, got away. You would think He might say, “Well, let him go. We’ve got ninety-nine of them safe in the fold. That’s a good percentage.” Anyone raising sheep knows that if you get to market with a little over fifty percent of those that are born, you’re doing well. But this is an unusual shepherd. He is not satisfied with ninety-nine. If He justifies one hundred sheep, He’s going to glorify one hundred sheep.
I’ll make this personal. Someday He will be counting them in “One, two, three, four, five … ninety-seven, ninety-eight, ninety-nine—where in the world is BigMack? Well, it looks like he didn’t make it. We’ll let him go because a great many people didn’t think he was going to make it anyway.” Thank God He won’t let him go. That shepherd is going after him.
The doctrine of election means that the Lord will be coming home with one hundred sheep! This is not a frightful doctrine; it is a wonderful doctrine. It means that BigMack going to be there; and it means you are going to be there, if you have trusted Christ. This is a most comforting doctrine in these uncertain days in which we live.
BigMack
I really feel bad for you being so wrong and all. :)
God says that He used Pharaoh. “But,” you may say, “he was not elected.” No, he sure wasn’t. Just think of the opportunities God gave him. Pharaoh would have said, “I am Pharaoh. I make the decisions around here. I reject the request to let the people of Israel go.” God says, “You may think you won’t, but you are going to let them go.” God’s will prevails. When the Scriptures say that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it means that God forced Pharaoh to make the decision that was in his heart. God forced him to do the thing he wanted to do. There never will be a person in hell who did not choose to be there. You are the one who makes your own decision.
Paul shows that God deals in patience and mercy even with the vessels of wrath. God did not fit them for destruction, the rebellion and sin of the clay made them ripe for judgment. God would have been right in exercising immediate judgment, but He dealt with these vessels, not as lifeless clay, but as creatures with a free will. He gave them ample opportunity to reveal any inclination they might have of obeying God. Although God hates sin and must judge it in a most final manner, His mercy is constantly going out to the creatures involved.
BigMack
I appreciate your concern...:o)
The simple fact of the matter is that man chooses according to his nature, every time! No natural man will of his own volition choose Christ. Can't happen. Won't happen. Impossible to happen. God must regenerate their hearts, or they will not turn to Him. Real life tells you that God doesn't do that for everybody. Those that He does it for, choose Him. Those He doesn't do it for, don't. To say that God would regenerate a man's heart, and that man would then reject Him, makes man's will greater than God's will. Man can stop God dead in His tracks. Man holds the trump card. Man calls his own shots.
That's not the God of the Bible, Mack. That's not the Christ of the Bible. Go back and read the article. It explains this better than I can.
No problem here, God calls all, some accept, most reject, but all have a shot. And thats my story and I'm sticking to it. We ain't gonna change each other, only God will can change us to the truth, its either gonna be me or you, I got my money on you. :)
You still got the girl friend in Tulsa?
BigMack
(sigh) Doesn't appear so. I was going to come there for Valentine's Day this year, and was in Nashville (on the way) visiting some friends, when she stopped taking my calls, e-mailed me and told me she was very upset I was coming down, and we've barely talked since.
Her loss....
I'd hate to see you lose your money, Mack...but, you places your bet, and you takes your chances....:o)
BigMack
In a case like that, I'd be praying that she would....
If ya wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you...
There's a song for everything....:o)
If it's all the same to you, Mack, I'll pass on the ugly woman. Meeting you and Becky would be fine...
17) For GOD sent not His Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD, but that the WORLD through HIM might be saved?
Who, in your mind is the "WORLD"?
I anxiously await your reply!
Then by all means, shoot it down and riddle it to pieces.
No. Just like your poor, unfounded interpretation of the words to suit your "Blasphemous religion".
Rochester Fan already explained it to you. Peter is talking to believers, and ONLY believers. Go back and read in context. Verses don't stand alone.
Calm down. No need to shout. No need to hurl accusations and innuendo, either. If you can't discuss this calmly, it would be better for you to leave it alone, for your own blood pressure if nothing esle.
Change "has chosen" to "knows" and "He will", to "will be saved", you will then have it right. Come on boy get with the program. :)
Notice how you seem to change words to support your "Blasphemous Religion"? Just like ALL Heresy's. They just never seem to get the right words in there. I wonder why? Maybe it's because it will destroy their argument for what they perceive to be "their" truth.
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