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Trigger Points To War
TIMOTHY SNODGRASS NEWSLETTER ^
| 16 MAR 2003
| TIMOTHY SNODGRASS
Posted on 03/16/2003 8:46:40 AM PST by Quix
Trigger Points To War
Timothy Snodgrass
Mar 16, 2003
DIFFUSING TRIGGER POINTS TO WAR
MARCH 9, 2003 REPORT
PRAYER AND FASTING RECOMMENDED 03/10/03 - 03/31/03
VISION OF 03/03/03
On the morning of March 3, 2003, I awoke from a vision of a global holocaust and catastrophic chain of events which flared across Europe, the Middle East and Asia; a world engulfed in an unexpected and out-of-control third world-war. The vision was so horrific that after awakening, I asked the Holy Spirit to erase the memories from my mind. Within several hours, the only memory remaining in my consciousness was that of mass graves, and thousands of bodies being bulldozed into the earth across Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and nations which were caught off guard around the world. This account is not written to create fear, but to stress the urgency of immediate intercession and prayer.
On 03/03/03, one trigger point for war was angelically diffused (when four North Korean MIGs intercepted a U.S. reconnaissance place in the Sea of Japan) but we have been warned by the Holy Spirit that more trigger points are being orchestrated by the enemy during the immediate weeks ahead. Each one of these trigger points can be eliminated if we remain alert and in strategic intercession for the nations of the world.
THREE SHIFTS, THREE CHANGING OF THE GUARDS
During the remainder of the month of March, I believe that the Holy Spirit is calling and commissioning many to serve as guards and watchmen for their nations in prayer and fasting, so that the enemy's plans will not succeed in their part of the world.
First Watch: March 10 - March 17.
Second Watch: March 17 - March 24.
Third Watch: March 24 - March 31.
Ultimately, this battle is not between flesh and blood, but between principalities and powers in high places. Demonic forces behind the scenes are manipulating world events to enter into a cataclysmic end, but our job is to see that they do not succeed. Intercession during the month of March for all world leaders is critical.
President Bush obviously needs much prayer during the month of March concerning the timing of a potential war with Iraq, along with wisdom concerning North Korea. In my opinion, thus far the Bush Administration has handled the situation with North Korea extremely well. The Administration has shown restraint and humility in the face of unreasonable threats and provocative actions, but at the same time demonstrated power and resolve by sending in 24 long-range bombers to Guam as an unspoken message and warning to Pyongyang to not take advantage of the situation in Iraq.
Interestingly, on 03/03/03 (US time), a Seoul newspaper (Korean Times) reported that a warhead from a missile launched by Pyongyang was found in the state of Alaska, according to a U.S. document obtained by the Korean National Assembly. Note carefully the timing. The prophetic warning encoded in the vision of 03/03/03 was validated with major international signs.
As a matter of fact, in February during my travels across the United States, in all 3 of my public meetings I recommended intercession and alertness on the date 03/03/03, and other prophetic ministries across the globe published the same forewarnings concerning the significance of 03/03/03.
Now that the date has passed, it would be extremely unwise to not heed the warnings released through signs and visions on 03/03/03. Tensions continue to rise on the Korean Peninsula, despite peace-keeping efforts from Washington. Do not take this call to prayer and fasting lightly, but ask the Holy Spirit what your role should be in this endeavor for peace while their is yet still time.
THE CHINA FACTOR
Over the years, the enemy has tried again and again Efrom the Vietnam Era to the present day Eto stir up a third world-war between China and the United States, using other nations as bait in his game (Vietnam, Taiwan, North Korea). On 02/22/03, the Lord interrupted my plans to depart for South Africa from the U.S., and sent me back east to Asia to once again intercede for this side of the world.
If the forces of darkness have their way, Chinese troops will soon be marching through the streets of the Philippines, in alignment with North Korea in a Third World War against the US and her allies.
Recently, my mom in Oregon (Deanna Lundy) had a vision of NPA Communist rebels marching through the streets of the Philippines, carrying the decapitated heads of about 60 Americans on bamboo sticks as they paraded with guns down the streets of the capital (unopposed, because Chinese troops had taken control of all major cities). My apologies for recounting the gruesome details of this vision, but the sobering fact is, if watchmen do not hear the call to stand guard in fasting and prayer during this time, many nations are in peril.
RELOCATION IN THE AIR, A CHANGING OF THE GUARDS
For many in 2003, relocation is in the air, and there is clearly a changing of the guards in many cities and nations. This does not imply a necessity to relocate because of impending calamities, but quite to the contrary, we are believing for victory in the current spiritual war we are engaged in, and an extended period of peace and prosperity.
Although ultimately, peace and prosperity cannot be achieved without great shaking (read Haggai), it is an achievable goal in this generation, just as it was in King Hezekiah's generation.
For the present time, our relocation to South Africa appears to be on hold for a little while. The date on my scouting ticket to Africa is flexible (donated through bonus miles), so I have moved up the departure date to later this Spring. The fact is, I don't know where I'm going to be from one day to the next. We are a watchman ministry. In the 43 nations I have traveled to since 1988, often the Holy Spirit has given us less than 24-hours notice before marching orders to transfer to another nation. Airline tickets have usually been supplied through last minute miracles. Thus, as far as the exact date or location, I cannot tell you with great certainty, except that relocation is currently in the air and we are now on standby status. We will depart Asia when God says we are finished, and not a second earlier.
. . . .
I have no problem with big meetings, if God ordains it. But a minister's priority should be simple obedience to God. We must not fall into a lifeless pattern which produces nothing more than a show, for people can always turn on the TV if they want to be entertained.
Our job is not to entertain, but to demonstrate the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit so that people will be drawn closer to God. Our meetings in America were very small, but anointed, and God had his way. At the conclusion of my trip to America, the Lord unexpectedly had me change directions. . . .
So anyway, that's a brief update of where we're at now in the ministry. We have not yet been released from standing guard in Southeast Asia, but sense that relocation is in the air, and thus are on standby to relocate at a moments notice. . . .please let us know if we can ever serve you in any way whatsoever. Peace and prosperity to you and your family in 2003.
Love,
Timothy, Juliet, Joshua and Esther Snodgrass
http://www.Timothy3.com
Timothy Snodgrass - PO Box 463, Kimberly OR 97848 USA
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To: Quix
Can you cite one case of Bible Code prediction? Something the bible codes predicted before it happened?
I did in the post you responded to.
Quix, in none of the posts on this thread have you cited a Bible Codes prediction which was made before the event happened, i.e a prediction that is testable as you and the bible say we should test a prophet. Further, I have lurked on other similar threads where you have assured such predictions exist, yet when asked for them, you did not reply.
there were two Old Testament cases where an authentic prophet of The Lord missed it.
Could you cite the scripture verse wherein an authentic prophet of the Lord gave a false prophecy.
Even if, as you say, a modern prophet need not be 100% accurate, there must be at least a prophetic predction to test. No?
I do want the truth. I'm trying to search it out. You claim to know proof exists. Are you willing to be truthful in providing it?
So again, that I may biblically test (as you have admonished) the predictive accuracy of the Bible Codes, please cite at least one prediction made before the event occurred. That would mean you include dates of the prediction, and presumably a news report can be then found to show a later date of it happening.
41
posted on
03/17/2003 10:59:20 AM PST
by
Starwind
To: Starwind
Quix pretty much said what I would say. Prophets need to be accurate in prophecy. If they're consistently off base or giving prophecy that's not scripturally based, then you need to ignore them. The bible says that a prophet is to judge another prophet as well. I've read some of the bible codes and I'm not sure really what I think about those yet. I'm not well versed in them. They certainly are interesting but I'm reserving my judgement because I don't know enough about them.
To: Quix
Your ignorance may be massive but it's still unimpressive. You read a monthly publication that purports to interpret current events as biblical prophecy and you call me ignorant?
Don't tell me. You must write for the rag, too.
43
posted on
03/17/2003 11:15:51 AM PST
by
sinkspur
To: sinkspur
YOU are OBVIOUSLY IGNORANT about that which you rant against.
However, time will tell who has been most accurate in perceiving and interpreting reality.
44
posted on
03/17/2003 11:46:04 AM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Starwind
I'll ask around again about the Old Testament examples.
I checked it out when it first came up and it was true. But I haven't been able to come up with sufficient keywords again to find it again and that was several years ago.
I mentioned 3 examples of the Codes.
I'll dig through many hundred messages and see if I can find the URLS in 15-20 minutes. If so, fine. If not, I have another priority to get out this afternoon.
Am glad you are asking honest questions. Thanks for doing some checking on your own.
I get fairly exasperated with hostile sorts who won't even consider even reasonable fair-minded scanning of the evidence.
45
posted on
03/17/2003 11:50:04 AM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Starwind
Check out post #42 at:
HERE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/862635/posts
Regarding Saddam. I think that one has yet to occur.
THAT POST talks about a code regarding the Columbia which could easily be seen to have occurred, IMHO.
And, it has some interesting Saddam stuff--one indicating the map will be changed contrary to US assertions at the moment.
And one about Iraq that indicates May will be peaceful.
That's about all the time I should take at the moment.
Blessings,
46
posted on
03/17/2003 12:01:08 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Quix
From that post, with my emphasis:
Here's a bit about Columbia: Could the space shuttle disaster last month have been due to an act of God? Intriguing code matrices suggesting the Lord's hand in the February 1 tragedy have been discovered by Montreal code researcher Moshe Aharon Shak. And findings by other researchers seem to echo God's involvement in the disaster.
Quix, the point of predictive prophecy is to predict
in advance. This does not meet the biblical test criteria as it has no predictive value, it was hindsight, not prediction. It is no more predictive than yesterdays newspaper.
47
posted on
03/17/2003 12:23:21 PM PST
by
Starwind
To: Starwind
At least some of the Codes about Columbia were from
3 YEARS BEFOREHAND. That may not have been clear the way I combined things in that post. And, often the Digest will post things that have been in the works for months.
You could search the Digest Codes site with "shuttle" or some such and see what you found to locate the Codes from 3 years ago.
48
posted on
03/17/2003 12:28:38 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Quix
And, often the Digest will post things that have been in the works for months. When they do not post a prediction in advance, it agains ceases to be testable, and has no authenticity.
I have looked at the Bible Code Digest website. There is no search capability that I can see, nor do they say one is available. Also, none of the articles are dated, so even if I did find an article that claims to predict a shuttle event, without a date or having been "notarized" somehow it's predictive authenticity cannot be tested.
Further, a google search of the website for shuttle only finds 5 articles, all of which are after the Columbia disaster.
There are no shuttle articles 3 years old. There are no shuttle articles at all before the Columbia.
So, again, Quix if you are in possession of biblically testable authentic predictive prophecy from the Bible Codes, please post it.
49
posted on
03/17/2003 12:55:52 PM PST
by
Starwind
To: Starwind
Thanks.
Will get back to it when I can.
50
posted on
03/17/2003 2:01:18 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Quix
So, again, Quix if you are in possession of biblically testable authentic predictive prophecy from the Bible Codes, please post it.
Will get back to it when I can.
Thanks very much. I'll be looking forward to reading them....also,
I'll ask around again about the Old Testament examples [of] two Old Testament cases where an authentic prophet of The Lord missed it.
Please add this to the list, I seriously would like to see these verses as well.
51
posted on
03/17/2003 2:18:41 PM PST
by
Starwind
To: Quix
Quix: "I think you'd best be very energetic about exercising your derision. It feels in my bones that the window of opportunity for that to have the remotest sanity and plausibility--that that window is beginning to close with increasing speed." I feel a kook prophecy coming on. (BTW -- does Legion have bones?)
Here it comes! Here it comes!!
Quix: "At some point in time, such derision will be hazardous--very hazardous."
"At some point in time"??? The voices, or are they coded thumpings?, you hear aren't very exacting on the *timing*, are they.
Quix: "I'm not sure precisely how."
They aren't very exacting on the *how*, either, are they?
Sounds like they don't like to be pinned down, huh?
Hey! By the way! Did you know that your name rhymes with another Clouseau-type inspector who's been looking for hidden secrets?? His name is "Blix". Hahahahaha
Quix: "But I'd guess at a minimum, the more derisive you are toward something authentically of God, the more deeply a root of hostility to God will grow in your being."
The god you promote is of less than no concern to me.
Quix: "And if you think being consumed by evil is a wonderful thing--I suggest you consider Billdo and her hideous heinous Bwitch Shrillary."
You sound as if you're speaking from experience. Hahaha
It never ceases to amaze me how easily the sheep-shearers in the religion racket are able to rake in the dough from the shallow, gullible mentalities in the pop-culture.
52
posted on
03/17/2003 5:02:54 PM PST
by
Matchett-PI
(Get a grip on kook reality - buy the "Bible Code" and learn what they *know*.)
To: Starwind
Have recalled that it was in a book. I think a Rick Joyner's book but I'm not sure.
Have gotten some help in a chat room . . .
BOOK:
YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHECY
by Ernest B Gentile
is supposed to have a long discussion of the topic.
That's not the book I'd found the Scriptures in. But it may have them.
And, I found this text:
Not-for-Prophet Organizations
an investigation into modern prophecy by
Jefferson Scott
"I think Im supposed to wash Sues bathrooms."
I took my eyes off the pastor and looked at my friend beside me in the pew. "You think what?"
"Its crazy, isnt it?" she said.
After the service, she walked over to Sue.
"Sue, tell me if this is nuts, but I think Im supposed to wash your bathrooms."
Sues mouth dropped open. "Youre kidding! This is Wow, this is unbelievable! Bills having a bunch of his youth group over tonight. I was just complaining to God this morning that there was no way I was going to have time to clean the bathrooms."
There is this troubling tug at the edge of my spirit sometimes, whispering to me that there is a dimension to Christianity that exceeds my comfortable borders. Something beyond Bible study and evangelism and prayer. Something sublimely spiritual.
Author Susan Wales was waiting for her turn to speak at a womens conference. Her friend and fellow author, Sheri Rose Shepherd, was at the podium speaking. The conference was in full swing. As usual, Sheri had the audience in stitches. But as Susan watched her friend speak, she suddenly "saw" Sheri with a baby girl.
That evening Susan had a moment alone with Sheri.
"Sheri, are you and Steve still trying to have more children?"
Sheri laughed. "Not a chance, Susan. I had such trouble when I was pregnant with Jake. And we miscarried so many times. We finally just decided not to try anymore. Steve had the operation. Why do you ask?"
"Sheri, I know this is going to sound odd, but I believe God is going to give you and Steve another child. I believe its going to be a girl. And I believe youre pregnant right now."
Sheri wanted to dismiss it, but Susan was sure. She bought a pregnancy test and brought it to Sheris hotel room.
Nine months later, Sheri gave birth to Emily Joy Shepherd.
A Walk on the Wild Side
What do we do with things that dont fit into our understanding of the Christian life? These women apparently received knowledge from God. Some would go so far as to call it prophecy.
Ooh, prophecy. Taboo. If you start talking about prophecy, next thing you know youll be speaking in tongues, convulsing on the floor, and raving about gold fillings miraculously appearing in your teeth.
Growing up Southern Baptist, Id always heard that prophecyalong with healing, tongues, and miracleshad ceased at the end of the New Testament era. The self-appointed prophets and miracle-workers of our day had proven charlatan more than enough to substantiate that belief. The charismatic movement, so often associated with a shallow seeking after signs and wonders, had given me plenty of reasons to be sure I didnt veer too closely to that side of the tracks.
But theres that pesky tug, that insistent suggestion that just because many abuse something doesnt mean there is nothing of worth there. If Id thought that, Id never have become a Christian in the first place.
So lets roll up our sleeves and take a look at prophecy, shall we? Lets scale the restraining wall to see if theres any sign of God on the other side.
Prophecy in the Bible
In the most basic sense, prophecy is a message from God given to a person to be delivered to Gods people.
In the Old Testament, prophecy was a statement of Gods will or a warning of impending judgment. The prophet received the message directly from God. He spoke as Gods spokesman, just as Aaron spoke the words of Moses to the people (Exodus 4:1416). This was prophecy in the "Thus saith the Lord" sense. The prophecy was, by definition, Scripture. To disobey a prophets words was to disobey God (Deuteronomy 18:19; 1 Kings 20:3536).
In the New Testament, prophecy seemed to undergo a transition. John the Baptist was a prophet in the Old Testament sense (Matthew 11:714). What he delivered as prophecy was Scripture. Then Jesus, toward whom all previous prophecy had looked, took the stage. What He said was inherently Word of God. But from Pentecost on, prophecy ceased to be considered on the level of Scripture.
"After Christ came there was a tremendous diffusion of the gift of prophecy," says Wayne Grudem, professor of biblical and systematic theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. "The Holy Spirit at Pentecost was poured out in fullness and power on the New Testament church. Thousands of people were exercising the gift of prophecy throughout the Mediterranean world. But not one of them had any words that ended up as Scripture."
[QUIX: I HAVE A PERSONAL BIAS THAT GOD DESIGNED IT TO BE DIFUSED AT THAT POINT TO FORCE US TO MORE WORK TOGETHER TO HAVE MORE OF THE PIECES OF THE PUZZLE AND TO REQUIRE US TO BE MORE IRON SHARPENING IRON WITH EACH OTHER AS WE GAVE OUR SENSE OF A PROPHETIC WORD OR INSIGHT AND THEN SUBMITTED IT FOR SORTING, SIFTING AND REFINEMENT IN VIEW OF OTHER'S PIECES. ALL THIS TOWARD THE END THAT "ALL MEN SHALL KNOW YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES--THAT YOU HAVE LOVE ONE FOR ANOTHER--NOT THAT YOU MEMORIZE THE BIBLE WELL; NOT THAT YOU PREACH WELL; NOT THAT YOU DO DOCTRINE WELL; NOT THAT YOU AVOID MOVIES, DANCING, CIGARETTES AND BOOZE WELL; BUT THAT YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
FORCING A JUDGING, SORTING PROCESS WITH EACH OTHER'S PROPHETIC INSIGHTS IS ONE WAY TO FACILITATE SUCH AN INCREASED LOVING SET OF RELATIONSHIPS--BUT IT'S A TEST AND FORMAT WE HAVE FAILED MISERABLY AT SO FAR. BUT I BELIEVE GOD IS IN THE PROCESS OF CLEANING US UP TOWARD THAT END.].
Grudem, author of The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (Crossway), says that after Pentecost, God no longer guaranteed that words delivered by prophets were necessarily from Him. "What carried over from Old Testament prophecy was not Thus says the Lord veracity, but simply the fact that God was bringing something to mind or revealing something to people."
Evidence that New Testament prophecy is not on the same level of authority and accuracy as Old Testament prophecy is found in Acts, Grudem says. "Paul disobeyed the warning of some apparent prophecies (Acts 21:4)something he never would have done if the prophecies contained Gods very words. And in 1 Thessalonians 5:2021 and 1 Corinthians 14:29 Paul tells us to sift prophecies for what is true. This could never have been said of the words of an Old Testament prophet."
If prophets no longer spoke words from God, how did we get our New Testament? "The New Testament counterpart to the Old Testament prophets is the apostles," Grudem says. "It was to the apostlesand those who worked under their direct endorsementthat Jesus gave the privilege of writing and speaking the very words of God in Scripture (Galatians 1:1112; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Peter 3:2)."
Why this shift in terminology? "It was probably because the Greek word prophetes (prophet) at the time of the New Testament had a very broad range of meanings," Grudem says. "It generally had the sense not of one who speaks Gods very words, but the sense of one who speaks as the result of an external spiritual influence."
Throughout the New Testament period, then, "Thus saith the Lord" messages were continuing (through the apostles), but alongside these came non-authoritative impressions, some of which were from God and some of which were not, thus the necessity of judging what was said (1 Corinthians 14:29; 1 Thessalonians 5:2021). Even those prophetic messages that were from God were not on the level of Scripture.
Silence from Heaven?
There is a school of thought, called cessationism, that says the so-called sign gifts of the New Testamentmiracles, healing, tongues, and prophecyceased at the close of the New Testament era. If this theory is true, all of what is today termed prophecy is false.
"According to the cessationist theory, the ministries and spiritual gifts were to authenticate the apostles as bearers of Gods message," says Ernest B. Gentile, author of Your Sons & Daughters Shall Prophesy (Baker). "As soon as the last of the New Testament canon was written, cessationists say, there was no longer a need for this authentication."
"The sign gifts have fallen silent," says Robert Jeffress, author of As Time Runs Out: A Simple Guide to Bible Prophecy (Broadman & Holman). "God is not continuing to give further revelation today. The prophet now is one who proclaims what God has already declared in Scripturethe faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)."
To Jeffress, prophecy is a mindset, a motivation which propels certain Bible teachers ministry. "The prophet is someone who wants to bring people to a point of conviction and decision for Christ," he says. "He or she is driven by the desire to present Gods truth in such a clear way that it breaks people and convicts them of sin, with the purpose of restoring them to right relationship with God."
The issue is one of authority. If prophecy continues today and if it is on the level of Old Testament prophecy, then, as cessationists correctly point out, our Bible is incomplete. If God is still adding more Scripture-level revelation, then the leather-bound book we carry to church every Sunday is obsolete. Its the Old Testament and the Not-So-Old Testament. But the formation of the New Testament would still be continuing.
"The Word of God is complete and sufficient," says Jerry Vines, author of SpiritWorks (Broadman & Holman), "and we have no need for more. I dont know who said it, but I agree: If its true, it aint new; if its new, it aint true. That may be poor grammar, but its correct theology."
If prophecy has fallen silent, our investigation can stop right here. The function once performed by prophets is now continued by Bible teachers. The internal voice of the Holy Spirit pointing us to Scripture is the only voice we need. If prophecy has fallen silent, we can easily write off all that is today called prophecy as heretical.
"Where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears" (1 Corinthians 13:811).
Case closed.
The Case for Continuance
On the other hand, what has this accomplished? Cessationism saves us from the continuing revelation problem, which is important, and it tells us we were right all along about the charismatic movement. But it doesnt help us understand those utterly spiritual impressions and urgings until now held safely at the fringe of conservative Christianity.
"Historically, I think cessationism arose from a desire by some Protestants to ban the use of so-called sign gifts by groups such as charismatics and Catholics," says Steve Lemke, Provost at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.
"For example, Catholics have more miracles than Protestants in church history, especially if you count every Mass as a miracle of transubstantiation," Lemke says. "Therefore, if doctrine were confirmed by miracles, it would affirm the Catholic rather than the Protestant tradition. This is what made some early thinkers, B.B. Warfield, for example, to endorse the cessation theory. People like W.A. Criswell endorsed cessationism in part as a total rejection of the strong emphasis of these gifts among charismatics.
"I do believe the gift of prophecy is a valid gift for today," Lemke says, "simply because I think the perfection Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 13:811 is heaven, not the completion of the canon.
[QX: I'd say it's Christ coming in/with His Perfect Kingdom]
"There are no temporal or geographical limitations placed on the sign gifts, except that they will not be necessary in heaven. Perhaps the completion of Scripture makes prophecy less necessary than in the past, but that does not invalidate a need for prophecy in each generation. If the Bible has not invalidated it, I certainly wont."
[QX: AMEN!]
In his book, Your Sons & Daughters Shall Prophesy, Gentile compares eight lists of spiritual gifts in the New Testament1 Corinthians 12: 810; 28; 2930; 13:13; 14:26; Romans 12:68; Ephesians 4:11; and 1 Peter 4:1011and finds prophecy on each list.
"I believe that if any of the gifts are for todayand most evangelicals seem to believe thisthen certainly prophecy should be accepted," he says. "If we accept the New Testaments eight lists of spiritual gifts, we must certainly accept the only one that is common to every list!"
[QX: AMEN!]
"Many of us have experienced prophecy," says Grudem, "although we may not have identified it as such.
"Here is an example. In a clearly non-charismatic Baptist church a missionary speaker paused in his message and said, I didnt plan to say this, but it seems the Lord is indicating that someone here has just walked out on his wife and family. If that is so, let me tell you that God wants you to return to them and learn to follow Gods pattern for family life. The missionary did not know it, but in the balcony sat a man who had entered the church for the first time just moments before. The description fit him exactly. He made himself known, acknowledged his sin, and began to seek after God."
[QX: THIS SORT OF THING HAS HAPPENED IN CHURCHES I'VE BEEN IN ALL MY 56 YEARS OF LIFE]
If there is only one kind of prophecy"Thus saith the Lord" Scripture prophecythe cessationists have to be correct. If we wish to hold to the sufficiency of our Bible, we are all forced to agree. But if Pentecost truly did introduce a new, less-authoritative kind of prophecy, then perhaps were still in business.
According to Gentile, the problem with those who hold to cessationism is that they "do not realize that the prophecy of the early churchesand of contemporary churchesis not meant to be Scripture prophecy, but rather simplistic prophecy for the encouragement of the local church. I call it domestic prophecy. It is not meant to replace the canonized Scripture, but rather to give comfort, edification, and exhortation in a way that applies Scriptural principles to the immediate situation."
[QX: AMEN!]
"I think prophecy is a broad umbrella term," says Grudem. "One that categorizes many kinds of things that God brings to mind that we share with others. Prophecy is anything that God brings to mind that results in upbuilding and encouraging the body (1 Corinthians 14:3)."
[QX: ABSOLUTELY--SUCH AS WHEN A SCRIPTURE JUMPS OUT AT YOU ABOUT A SPECIFIC NEED OR BURDEN IN THE READER'S LIFE ETC.]
According to Grudem, prophecy in this sense is alive and well in even anti-charismatic churches today. "It is functioning at church prayer meetings, for example, when someone has felt unusually led by the Spirit to pray for something, or when it has seemed that the Spirit was bringing to mind a hymn or Scripture passage, or giving a sense of the focus for a time of group worship."
[QX: ABSOLUTELY]
In Grudems opinion, prophecy in the New Testament and beyond has five characteristics. Prophecy: 1) is less authoritative than Scripture or apostolic teaching, 2) is different from ordinary teaching because of its spontaneous and revelatory nature, 3) edifies the church or a believer, 4) is available to anyone in the congregation, and 5) will be active until Christ returns.
[QX: I'D ADD--IS CONSISTENT WITH SCRIPTURE WHERE IT TOUCHES ON A SCRIPTURAL ISSUE AT ALL]
Under Grudems definition, our examples at the beginning of the article would indeed be considered prophecy, as would be the promptings and insights Christians regularly receive in prayer, worship, study, meditation, and daily life. Prophecy, then, would be "the still, small voice" of Gods Spirit: Gods living Word, residing inside us, expressing His will and guidance through various forms of spiritual communication.
[QX: HOLY SPIRIT CAN'T LEAD US INTO ALL TRUTH IN OUR ERA WITHOUT THERE BEING SOME VERSION OF PROPHECY OPERATING]
Eagerly Desire the Greater Gifts
What does Paul mean when he urges his readershis Christian readersto eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 14:1)? If he is being carried along by the Holy Spirit when he wrote this, inspired by the big-P gift of prophecy (which equaled Scripture), what could he have been thinking?
Maybe he was thinking that all Christians ought to expect God to speak to them in a supernatural way, especially during worship.
[QX: ABSOLUTELY]
"If Paul was eager for the gift of prophecy to function at Corinth," Grudem says, "then should we not also actively seek this valuable gift in our congregations today? We evangelicals who profess to believe and obey all that Scripture says, should we not also believe and obey this?
[QX: ABSOLUTELY. EITHER IGNORE ALL PAUL'S EXHORTATIONS TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH UNIVERSAL--OR ACCEPT ALL OF THEM AS APPLICABLE TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH UNIVERSAL.]
And might a greater openness to the gift of prophecy perhaps help to correct a dangerous imbalance in our church lives, an imbalance that is too exclusively intellectual, objective, and narrowly doctrinal?"
[QX: ABSOLUTELY--AND ACTUALLY RATHER IDOLATROUS OF PRINTED WORDS ON A PAGE IN A RELIGIOUS SPIRIT FASHION INSTEAD OF WORSHIPPING AND WALKING HAND IN HAND WITH THE LIVING WORD--THE RESURRECTION LIFE WHO IS JESUS THE CHRIST]
"God is beaming His thoughts down on His people," says Gentile. "Prophecy occurs when a prophetically inspired person extends his or her faith like a spiritual antenna, receives some divine thoughts of God for that given moment, and then speaks them forth by the power of the Holy Spirit to an individual or group for the glory of God."
I will listen for Your voice, Lord. I believe You do still speak in Your prophetic voice. Just please dont ask me to do anybodys bathrooms!
[QX: THERE'S THE RUB!]
Sidebar #1Office or Prophet, Gift of Prophecy?
"I think there is a clear distinction to be made between the gift and office of prophecy," says Steve Lemke. "Of course, the office of prophet would be the most obvious place for a person with the gift of prophecy to serve. But prophets never did fit very well into organizations. Like Jeremiah, Hosea, and John the Baptist, prophets upset the status quo, and thus suffer rejection, rebuke, and derision. But here is the distinctiona person with a gift of prophecy could also serve as a Sunday School teacher, a pastor, a deacon, a youth minister, etc.
[QX: RIGHT.]
"For example, I would identify my primary spiritual gift as the gift of wisdom, with pastor/teacher as the secondary gift. The gift of wisdom has been useful to me in youth ministry, pastoral ministry, teaching, and now in academic administration. The same gift finds different expressions in each of these offices. It provides me a basic way of relating and dealing with issues."
Sidebar #2Filtering True from False
In the Old Testament, there were two means of judging whether a prophecy was true or false. First, a prophecy was not from God if what the prophet predicted did not come true (Deuteronomy 18:2122). Second, even if a prophecy came to pass, it was not from God if the prophet was urging the people to follow other gods (Deuteronomy 13:15).
In addition to those tests, Wayne Grudem points out three other safeguards for prophecy after Pentecost.
"There is first of all the test of the life of the person speaking. Is the person living a consistent Christian life, following the Lord? Even so, I would have to say be very cautious about using prophecy for guidance in life. People who continually seek subjective messages from God to guide their lives must be cautioned that subjective personal guidance is not the main function of New Testament prophecy. They need to place the emphasis on seeking Gods sure wisdom written in Scripture.
"Second, I seek multiple confirmations from others who know me. If five different people who have long track records of walking with the Lord and whom I trust as mature believers all called me and said God had brought something to mind for me, then I would certainly sit up and take notice!
[QX: RIGHT. MY PATTERN, TOO.]
"Third, above all, I must be sure that the guidance is consistent with Scripture.
"All this testing might seem as though we were trying to kill prophecy with restrictions. But quite the contrary. The safeguards that the holy Scriptures entreat us to put on prophecy provide an atmosphere in which we can function without running the danger of leading people astray. In that setting, prophecy can flourish."
Sidebar #3What About Apostles?
If prophecy is found to be in operation today, arent we forced to say apostleship is still valid, too? According to Wayne Grudem, apostles were the New Testament equivalent of Old Testament Prophets. This gift, he believes, did cease at the close of the canon.
But others disagree. "Yes, I believe that we do have apostles today," says Ernest B. Gentile, "but I think that some are getting carried away with the title. Apostles are church-planters, missionaries, those who father and oversee churches, those who bear government and responsibilitysuch a definition is not so glamorous, but more realistic. In some third world countries we see people willing to die for the faith. That makes our American talk about apostleship seem rather shallow. I believe all five ministries (or four if you count that way) in Ephesians 4 are meant to be permanent fixtures in the church of Jesus Christ."
[QX: THERE'S AN AFRICAN APOSTLE VISITING THE LOCAL CHURCH HERE CURRENTLY. He's a truly humble man and powerful in The Spirit].
Copyright © Jefferson Scott. All Rights Reserved. Reprinted with permission.
http://www.jeffersonscott.com
53
posted on
03/17/2003 6:47:20 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Starwind
I think I found the shuttle thing by looking back through earlier months of the Digest. There may have been a suggestion in one of the recent articles. Perhaps I should check there first before I go further through a tedious process.
But I also think there's a fallacy in your thinking.
The Codes are THERE. They have been THERE since the writing of the Canon. Discovering them at any later point in time is just that--discovering something that's been there for more than 2,000 years.
It's as though something has sat in the dust in a hidden safe in your clothes closet for 2,000 years. And finally you find the combination to unlock the safe and find what's there.
Each month we find more combinations--doesn't alter what's there at all. Just turns the light on so it can be read.
54
posted on
03/17/2003 7:05:08 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Quix
A great post. It's important for us to remembr that when te Holy Spirit moves us to intercessory prayer, we must pray right then, not wait til we get home. Thanks.
55
posted on
03/17/2003 7:08:48 PM PST
by
185JHP
( Brisance. Puissance. Resolve.)
To: Starwind
56
posted on
03/17/2003 7:16:30 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Quix
Have recalled that it was in a book. I think a Rick Joyner's book but I'm not sure. I would very much appreciate your posting only proofs of the authentic predictive bible code prophecies. Please skip anything you're not sure of. I don't appreciate being lead along with guesswork substituted for what you said was biblically testable predictive prophecy.
You were, previously - on this and several other threads, sure that Bible Codes are prophecy and predict the future. You even cited the Columbia disaster as one specific testable bible code prophecy.
Quix, I have read Joyner's books. There is nothing in them about the Columbia. There is nothing in your post #53 about the Columbia. But you knew that.
You're forcing me to choose from either of two equally unpalatable conclusions; that you are either posting deceptions, or that you lack the wisdom and discernment to recognize deception.
I'd like to think you have been both honest and discerning, so, please, as you previously agreed, post:
a biblically testable authentic predictive prophecy from the Bible Codes
two Old Testament cases where an authentic prophet of The Lord missed it.
57
posted on
03/17/2003 7:16:36 PM PST
by
Starwind
To: Starwind
58
posted on
03/17/2003 7:18:48 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Starwind
59
posted on
03/17/2003 7:21:13 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
To: Starwind
60
posted on
03/17/2003 7:24:09 PM PST
by
Quix
(MARCH BIBLE CODES DIGEST LATEST RESEARCH COMPARES WAR AND PEACE VS BIBLE W SURPRISES 4 BOTH SIDES)
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