Have recalled that it was in a book. I think a Rick Joyner's book but I'm not sure.
Have gotten some help in a chat room . . .
BOOK:
YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHECY
by Ernest B Gentile
is supposed to have a long discussion of the topic.
That's not the book I'd found the Scriptures in. But it may have them.
And, I found this text:
Not-for-Prophet Organizations
an investigation into modern prophecy by
Jefferson Scott
"I think I’m supposed to wash Sue’s bathrooms."
I took my eyes off the pastor and looked at my friend beside me in the pew. "You think what?"
"It’s crazy, isn’t it?" she said.
After the service, she walked over to Sue.
"Sue, tell me if this is nuts, but I think I’m supposed to wash your bathrooms."
Sue’s mouth dropped open. "You’re kidding! This is— Wow, this is unbelievable! Bill’s having a bunch of his youth group over tonight. I was just complaining to God this morning that there was no way I was going to have time to clean the bathrooms."
There is this troubling tug at the edge of my spirit sometimes, whispering to me that there is a dimension to Christianity that exceeds my comfortable borders. Something beyond Bible study and evangelism and prayer. Something sublimely spiritual.
Author Susan Wales was waiting for her turn to speak at a women’s conference. Her friend and fellow author, Sheri Rose Shepherd, was at the podium speaking. The conference was in full swing. As usual, Sheri had the audience in stitches. But as Susan watched her friend speak, she suddenly "saw" Sheri with a baby girl.
That evening Susan had a moment alone with Sheri.
"Sheri, are you and Steve still trying to have more children?"
Sheri laughed. "Not a chance, Susan. I had such trouble when I was pregnant with Jake. And we miscarried so many times. We finally just decided not to try anymore. Steve had ‘the operation.’ Why do you ask?"
"Sheri, I know this is going to sound odd, but I believe God is going to give you and Steve another child. I believe it’s going to be a girl. And I believe you’re pregnant right now."
Sheri wanted to dismiss it, but Susan was sure. She bought a pregnancy test and brought it to Sheri’s hotel room.
Nine months later, Sheri gave birth to Emily Joy Shepherd.
A Walk on the Wild Side
What do we do with things that don’t fit into our understanding of the Christian life? These women apparently received knowledge from God. Some would go so far as to call it prophecy.
Ooh, prophecy. Taboo. If you start talking about prophecy, next thing you know you’ll be speaking in tongues, convulsing on the floor, and raving about gold fillings miraculously appearing in your teeth.
Growing up Southern Baptist, I’d always heard that prophecy—along with healing, tongues, and miracles—had ceased at the end of the New Testament era. The self-appointed prophets and miracle-workers of our day had proven charlatan more than enough to substantiate that belief. The charismatic movement, so often associated with a shallow seeking after signs and wonders, had given me plenty of reasons to be sure I didn’t veer too closely to that side of the tracks.
But there’s that pesky tug, that insistent suggestion that just because many abuse something doesn’t mean there is nothing of worth there. If I’d thought that, I’d never have become a Christian in the first place.
So let’s roll up our sleeves and take a look at prophecy, shall we? Let’s scale the restraining wall to see if there’s any sign of God on the other side.
Prophecy in the Bible
In the most basic sense, prophecy is a message from God given to a person to be delivered to God’s people.
In the Old Testament, prophecy was a statement of God’s will or a warning of impending judgment. The prophet received the message directly from God. He spoke as God’s spokesman, just as Aaron spoke the words of Moses to the people (Exodus 4:14–16). This was prophecy in the "Thus saith the Lord" sense. The prophecy was, by definition, Scripture. To disobey a prophet’s words was to disobey God (Deuteronomy 18:19; 1 Kings 20:35–36).
In the New Testament, prophecy seemed to undergo a transition. John the Baptist was a prophet in the Old Testament sense (Matthew 11:7–14). What he delivered as prophecy was Scripture. Then Jesus, toward whom all previous prophecy had looked, took the stage. What He said was inherently Word of God. But from Pentecost on, prophecy ceased to be considered on the level of Scripture.
"After Christ came there was a tremendous diffusion of the gift of prophecy," says Wayne Grudem, professor of biblical and systematic theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. "The Holy Spirit at Pentecost was poured out in fullness and power on the New Testament church. Thousands of people were exercising the gift of prophecy throughout the Mediterranean world. But not one of them had any words that ended up as Scripture."
[QUIX: I HAVE A PERSONAL BIAS THAT GOD DESIGNED IT TO BE DIFUSED AT THAT POINT TO FORCE US TO MORE WORK TOGETHER TO HAVE MORE OF THE PIECES OF THE PUZZLE AND TO REQUIRE US TO BE MORE IRON SHARPENING IRON WITH EACH OTHER AS WE GAVE OUR SENSE OF A PROPHETIC WORD OR INSIGHT AND THEN SUBMITTED IT FOR SORTING, SIFTING AND REFINEMENT IN VIEW OF OTHER'S PIECES. ALL THIS TOWARD THE END THAT "ALL MEN SHALL KNOW YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES--THAT YOU HAVE LOVE ONE FOR ANOTHER--NOT THAT YOU MEMORIZE THE BIBLE WELL; NOT THAT YOU PREACH WELL; NOT THAT YOU DO DOCTRINE WELL; NOT THAT YOU AVOID MOVIES, DANCING, CIGARETTES AND BOOZE WELL; BUT THAT YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
FORCING A JUDGING, SORTING PROCESS WITH EACH OTHER'S PROPHETIC INSIGHTS IS ONE WAY TO FACILITATE SUCH AN INCREASED LOVING SET OF RELATIONSHIPS--BUT IT'S A TEST AND FORMAT WE HAVE FAILED MISERABLY AT SO FAR. BUT I BELIEVE GOD IS IN THE PROCESS OF CLEANING US UP TOWARD THAT END.].
Grudem, author of The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (Crossway), says that after Pentecost, God no longer guaranteed that words delivered by prophets were necessarily from Him. "What carried over from Old Testament prophecy was not ‘Thus says the Lord’ veracity, but simply the fact that God was bringing something to mind or revealing something to people."
Evidence that New Testament prophecy is not on the same level of authority and accuracy as Old Testament prophecy is found in Acts, Grudem says. "Paul disobeyed the warning of some apparent prophecies (Acts 21:4)—something he never would have done if the prophecies contained God’s very words. And in 1 Thessalonians 5:20–21 and 1 Corinthians 14:29 Paul tells us to sift prophecies for what is true. This could never have been said of the words of an Old Testament prophet."
If prophets no longer spoke words from God, how did we get our New Testament? "The New Testament counterpart to the Old Testament prophets is the apostles," Grudem says. "It was to the apostles—and those who worked under their direct endorsement—that Jesus gave the privilege of writing and speaking the very words of God in Scripture (Galatians 1:11–12; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Peter 3:2)."
Why this shift in terminology? "It was probably because the Greek word prophetes (‘prophet’) at the time of the New Testament had a very broad range of meanings," Grudem says. "It generally had the sense not of ‘one who speaks God’s very words,’ but the sense of ‘one who speaks as the result of an external spiritual influence.’"
Throughout the New Testament period, then, "Thus saith the Lord" messages were continuing (through the apostles), but alongside these came non-authoritative impressions, some of which were from God and some of which were not, thus the necessity of judging what was said (1 Corinthians 14:29; 1 Thessalonians 5:20–21). Even those prophetic messages that were from God were not on the level of Scripture.
Silence from Heaven?
There is a school of thought, called cessationism, that says the so-called sign gifts of the New Testament—miracles, healing, tongues, and prophecy—ceased at the close of the New Testament era. If this theory is true, all of what is today termed prophecy is false.
"According to the cessationist theory, the ministries and spiritual gifts were to authenticate the apostles as bearers of God’s message," says Ernest B. Gentile, author of Your Sons & Daughters Shall Prophesy (Baker). "As soon as the last of the New Testament canon was written, cessationists say, there was no longer a need for this authentication."
"The sign gifts have fallen silent," says Robert Jeffress, author of As Time Runs Out: A Simple Guide to Bible Prophecy (Broadman & Holman). "God is not continuing to give further revelation today. The prophet now is one who proclaims what God has already declared in Scripture—the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)."
To Jeffress, prophecy is a mindset, a motivation which propels certain Bible teachers’ ministry. "The prophet is someone who wants to bring people to a point of conviction and decision for Christ," he says. "He or she is driven by the desire to present God’s truth in such a clear way that it breaks people and convicts them of sin, with the purpose of restoring them to right relationship with God."
The issue is one of authority. If prophecy continues today and if it is on the level of Old Testament prophecy, then, as cessationists correctly point out, our Bible is incomplete. If God is still adding more Scripture-level revelation, then the leather-bound book we carry to church every Sunday is obsolete. It’s the Old Testament and the Not-So-Old Testament. But the formation of the New Testament would still be continuing.
"The Word of God is complete and sufficient," says Jerry Vines, author of SpiritWorks (Broadman & Holman), "and we have no need for more. I don’t know who said it, but I agree: ‘If it’s true, it ain’t new; if it’s new, it ain’t true.’ That may be poor grammar, but it’s correct theology."
If prophecy has fallen silent, our investigation can stop right here. The function once performed by prophets is now continued by Bible teachers. The internal voice of the Holy Spirit pointing us to Scripture is the only voice we need. If prophecy has fallen silent, we can easily write off all that is today called prophecy as heretical.
"Where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears" (1 Corinthians 13:8–11).
Case closed.
The Case for Continuance
On the other hand, what has this accomplished? Cessationism saves us from the continuing revelation problem, which is important, and it tells us we were right all along about the charismatic movement. But it doesn’t help us understand those utterly spiritual impressions and urgings until now held safely at the fringe of conservative Christianity.
"Historically, I think cessationism arose from a desire by some Protestants to ban the use of so-called sign gifts by groups such as charismatics and Catholics," says Steve Lemke, Provost at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.
"For example, Catholics have more miracles than Protestants in church history, especially if you count every Mass as a miracle of transubstantiation," Lemke says. "Therefore, if doctrine were confirmed by miracles, it would affirm the Catholic rather than the Protestant tradition. This is what made some early thinkers, B.B. Warfield, for example, to endorse the cessation theory. People like W.A. Criswell endorsed cessationism in part as a total rejection of the strong emphasis of these gifts among charismatics.
"I do believe the gift of prophecy is a valid gift for today," Lemke says, "simply because I think the ‘perfection’ Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 13:8–11 is heaven, not the completion of the canon.
[QX: I'd say it's Christ coming in/with His Perfect Kingdom]
"There are no temporal or geographical limitations placed on the sign gifts, except that they will not be necessary in heaven. Perhaps the completion of Scripture makes prophecy less necessary than in the past, but that does not invalidate a need for prophecy in each generation. If the Bible has not invalidated it, I certainly won’t."
[QX: AMEN!]
In his book, Your Sons & Daughters Shall Prophesy, Gentile compares eight lists of spiritual gifts in the New Testament—1 Corinthians 12: 8–10; 28; 29–30; 13:1–3; 14:26; Romans 12:6–8; Ephesians 4:11; and 1 Peter 4:10–11—and finds prophecy on each list.
"I believe that if any of the gifts are for today—and most evangelicals seem to believe this—then certainly prophecy should be accepted," he says. "If we accept the New Testament’s eight lists of spiritual gifts, we must certainly accept the only one that is common to every list!"
[QX: AMEN!]
"Many of us have experienced prophecy," says Grudem, "although we may not have identified it as such.
"Here is an example. In a clearly non-charismatic Baptist church a missionary speaker paused in his message and said, ‘I didn’t plan to say this, but it seems the Lord is indicating that someone here has just walked out on his wife and family. If that is so, let me tell you that God wants you to return to them and learn to follow God’s pattern for family life.’ The missionary did not know it, but in the balcony sat a man who had entered the church for the first time just moments before. The description fit him exactly. He made himself known, acknowledged his sin, and began to seek after God."
[QX: THIS SORT OF THING HAS HAPPENED IN CHURCHES I'VE BEEN IN ALL MY 56 YEARS OF LIFE]
If there is only one kind of prophecy—"Thus saith the Lord" Scripture prophecy—the cessationists have to be correct. If we wish to hold to the sufficiency of our Bible, we are all forced to agree. But if Pentecost truly did introduce a new, less-authoritative kind of prophecy, then perhaps we’re still in business.
According to Gentile, the problem with those who hold to cessationism is that they "do not realize that the prophecy of the early churches—and of contemporary churches—is not meant to be Scripture prophecy, but rather simplistic prophecy for the encouragement of the local church. I call it ‘domestic prophecy.’ It is not meant to replace the canonized Scripture, but rather to give comfort, edification, and exhortation in a way that applies Scriptural principles to the immediate situation."
[QX: AMEN!]
"I think prophecy is a broad umbrella term," says Grudem. "One that categorizes many kinds of things that God brings to mind that we share with others. Prophecy is anything that God brings to mind that results in upbuilding and encouraging the body (1 Corinthians 14:3)."
[QX: ABSOLUTELY--SUCH AS WHEN A SCRIPTURE JUMPS OUT AT YOU ABOUT A SPECIFIC NEED OR BURDEN IN THE READER'S LIFE ETC.]
According to Grudem, prophecy in this sense is alive and well in even anti-charismatic churches today. "It is functioning at church prayer meetings, for example, when someone has felt unusually led by the Spirit to pray for something, or when it has seemed that the Spirit was bringing to mind a hymn or Scripture passage, or giving a sense of the focus for a time of group worship."
[QX: ABSOLUTELY]
In Grudem’s opinion, prophecy in the New Testament and beyond has five characteristics. Prophecy: 1) is less authoritative than Scripture or apostolic teaching, 2) is different from ordinary teaching because of its spontaneous and revelatory nature, 3) edifies the church or a believer, 4) is available to anyone in the congregation, and 5) will be active until Christ returns.
[QX: I'D ADD--IS CONSISTENT WITH SCRIPTURE WHERE IT TOUCHES ON A SCRIPTURAL ISSUE AT ALL]
Under Grudem’s definition, our examples at the beginning of the article would indeed be considered prophecy, as would be the promptings and insights Christians regularly receive in prayer, worship, study, meditation, and daily life. Prophecy, then, would be "the still, small voice" of God’s Spirit: God’s living Word, residing inside us, expressing His will and guidance through various forms of spiritual communication.
[QX: HOLY SPIRIT CAN'T LEAD US INTO ALL TRUTH IN OUR ERA WITHOUT THERE BEING SOME VERSION OF PROPHECY OPERATING]
Eagerly Desire the Greater Gifts
What does Paul mean when he urges his readers—his Christian readers—to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 14:1)? If he is being carried along by the Holy Spirit when he wrote this, inspired by the big-P gift of prophecy (which equaled Scripture), what could he have been thinking?
Maybe he was thinking that all Christians ought to expect God to speak to them in a supernatural way, especially during worship.
[QX: ABSOLUTELY]
"If Paul was eager for the gift of prophecy to function at Corinth," Grudem says, "then should we not also actively seek this valuable gift in our congregations today? We evangelicals who profess to believe and obey all that Scripture says, should we not also believe and obey this?
[QX: ABSOLUTELY. EITHER IGNORE ALL PAUL'S EXHORTATIONS TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH UNIVERSAL--OR ACCEPT ALL OF THEM AS APPLICABLE TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH UNIVERSAL.]
And might a greater openness to the gift of prophecy perhaps help to correct a dangerous imbalance in our church lives, an imbalance that is too exclusively intellectual, objective, and narrowly doctrinal?"
[QX: ABSOLUTELY--AND ACTUALLY RATHER IDOLATROUS OF PRINTED WORDS ON A PAGE IN A RELIGIOUS SPIRIT FASHION INSTEAD OF WORSHIPPING AND WALKING HAND IN HAND WITH THE LIVING WORD--THE RESURRECTION LIFE WHO IS JESUS THE CHRIST]
"God is beaming His thoughts down on His people," says Gentile. "Prophecy occurs when a prophetically inspired person extends his or her faith like a spiritual antenna, receives some divine thoughts of God for that given moment, and then speaks them forth by the power of the Holy Spirit to an individual or group for the glory of God."
I will listen for Your voice, Lord. I believe You do still speak in Your prophetic voice. Just please don’t ask me to do anybody’s bathrooms!
[QX: THERE'S THE RUB!]
Sidebar #1—Office or Prophet, Gift of Prophecy?
"I think there is a clear distinction to be made between the gift and office of prophecy," says Steve Lemke. "Of course, the office of prophet would be the most obvious place for a person with the gift of prophecy to serve. But prophets never did fit very well into organizations. Like Jeremiah, Hosea, and John the Baptist, prophets upset the status quo, and thus suffer rejection, rebuke, and derision. But here is the distinction—a person with a gift of prophecy could also serve as a Sunday School teacher, a pastor, a deacon, a youth minister, etc.
[QX: RIGHT.]
"For example, I would identify my primary spiritual gift as the gift of wisdom, with pastor/teacher as the secondary gift. The gift of wisdom has been useful to me in youth ministry, pastoral ministry, teaching, and now in academic administration. The same gift finds different expressions in each of these ‘offices.’ It provides me a basic way of relating and dealing with issues."
Sidebar #2—Filtering True from False
In the Old Testament, there were two means of judging whether a prophecy was true or false. First, a prophecy was not from God if what the prophet predicted did not come true (Deuteronomy 18:21–22). Second, even if a prophecy came to pass, it was not from God if the prophet was urging the people to follow other gods (Deuteronomy 13:1–5).
In addition to those tests, Wayne Grudem points out three other safeguards for prophecy after Pentecost.
"There is first of all the test of the life of the person speaking. Is the person living a consistent Christian life, following the Lord? Even so, I would have to say be very cautious about using prophecy for guidance in life. People who continually seek subjective messages from God to guide their lives must be cautioned that subjective personal guidance is not the main function of New Testament prophecy. They need to place the emphasis on seeking God’s sure wisdom written in Scripture.
"Second, I seek multiple confirmations from others who know me. If five different people who have long track records of walking with the Lord and whom I trust as mature believers all called me and said God had brought something to mind for me, then I would certainly sit up and take notice!
[QX: RIGHT. MY PATTERN, TOO.]
"Third, above all, I must be sure that the guidance is consistent with Scripture.
"All this testing might seem as though we were trying to kill prophecy with restrictions. But quite the contrary. The safeguards that the holy Scriptures entreat us to put on prophecy provide an atmosphere in which we can function without running the danger of leading people astray. In that setting, prophecy can flourish."
Sidebar #3—What About Apostles?
If prophecy is found to be in operation today, aren’t we forced to say apostleship is still valid, too? According to Wayne Grudem, apostles were the New Testament equivalent of Old Testament Prophets. This gift, he believes, did cease at the close of the canon.
But others disagree. "Yes, I believe that we do have apostles today," says Ernest B. Gentile, "but I think that some are getting carried away with the title. Apostles are church-planters, missionaries, those who father and oversee churches, those who bear government and responsibility—such a definition is not so glamorous, but more realistic. In some third world countries we see people willing to die for the faith. That makes our American talk about apostleship seem rather shallow. I believe all five ministries (or four if you count that way) in Ephesians 4 are meant to be permanent fixtures in the church of Jesus Christ."
[QX: THERE'S AN AFRICAN APOSTLE VISITING THE LOCAL CHURCH HERE CURRENTLY. He's a truly humble man and powerful in The Spirit].
Copyright © Jefferson Scott. All Rights Reserved. Reprinted with permission.
http://www.jeffersonscott.com