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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Satan rebelled before the Earth was created according to most theologies.

But I cannot get beyond the point that Calvinism tells me that God wanted Satan to rebel. I'm told He could have stopped it if He wanted to, but He didn't.

323 posted on 03/17/2003 6:43:02 PM PST by Corin Stormhands (Liberate Iraq. Fumigate France.)
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To: Corin Stormhands
But I cannot get beyond the point that Calvinism tells me that God wanted Satan to rebel. I'm told He could have stopped it if He wanted to, but He didn't.

i am not certain that Calvinism tells you so much as the bible tells you that. i'm not even certain that Satan's fall is even so much of an Arminian/Calvinist discussion. We do know from the revelation of scripture that Angels do not have the same opportunity for redemption as mankind. In that sense, the Attonement of Christ IS truly limited, i don't think that there is any dispute about that matter.

Now to address your question.

There are a good many things in our own physical world that we don't understand and can't understand. ftD refers with contempt to a 'secret will' of God, and in a sense, he is quite correct. We see (on the monitors) a lot of nonsense written about decreeitive will, salvific will, permissive will, etc. This is nonsense, there is ONLY the Will of God. That God has a will is a matter of revelation to man. The EXTENT of that will is also a matter of revelation. This question goes beyond Arminianism/Calvinism too. An honest examination of scripture determines that there are and will continue to be matters of God that we cannot know, and will not know. We will not, for example, know the exact time that Christ will return until it happens, and Jesus explicitly stated that it was not for us to know. Do a search on the words 'secret' and mystery, (same word in the Greek), and you will see this.

For that matter, we don't even know if Satan's fall was even a matter of 'will' of either God or Satan...i will not proceed any further on this line of thought as it leads into docetic gnosticism. i don't know that we can know. One is looking at a situation that deals with the mind of an infinite God. Even in my glorified body and redeemed soul/spirit, i do not expect that i will ever know. We build our theological models on what is revealed. i do know that

1)God is holy and will not tolerate sin
2)Sin did enter the creation
3)Sin is not part of God's nature
4)God limits the extent of sin, and it is compelled to do nothing more or less than serve His purpose
5)Sin will be done away with

It is the How and Why questions that we cannot get a complete answer to. IMHO, the only alternative is atheism, and that is self-refuting.

i am sorry that i cannot provide a better answer, but i am stuck with my limits

324 posted on 03/17/2003 7:32:41 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (Resolution?...We don't need no steenking resolution!)
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To: Corin Stormhands
But I cannot get beyond the point that Calvinism tells me that God wanted Satan to rebel. I'm told He could have stopped it if He wanted to, but He didn't.

It stands to reason then that since God allowed Satan to rebel, God must have planned to use sin as a tool to further His Glory. While we may not see how that can be, it is not necessary for us to understand that in order for it to be true. God did not cause sin, He is not sinful in any way, but He can and has used sin in His creation as a tool. I'm inclined to think that no one can really understand how Holy and Righteous God is unless they have something to compare it to: Sin, which is the exact opposite of what God is. A study in contrasts, a graphic example, if you will.

For whatever reason, God has allowed, controlled, and directed sin in order to Glorify Himself, and to make known the riches of His Glory to those whom He has chosen to share it with. In this lifetime, we will probably never be able to answer why. It is certain that sin neither took Him by surprise, or caused Him a moment of consternation over its appearance. He knew it before it happened, and was in control of it, even then. As truly as God meant the sin of Joseph's brothers for Joseph's (and God's) good, the appearance of sin in God's creation was, and is, turned to God's good.

God created beings with the potential and capability of sinning, even though it wasn't initially in their nature to sin, nor was it God's desire that they sin, but sin they did, as God knew they would. Knowing that, He could turn what would be destructive into something that would ultimately benefit not only Him, but His chosen people as well. The end result is greater than if sin had never entered the world.

326 posted on 03/17/2003 11:44:40 PM PST by nobdysfool (Let God be true, and every man a liar....)
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