Could I ask a serious question of some Mormons? (Please?)

today | me

[Jael]

No man who rejects the testimony of Joseph Smith can enter the kingdom of God"
Doctrines of Salvation, vol. I, p. 190).

My question:
Is that what Mormons believe?
If so, how was anyone saved before 1830.

[Wrigley]

(What does the employee's handbook say about non-work related computer usage??)

The real question is, does it go against the WOW?

[Elsie]

I'm gone myself for a while.

Here in INDY, JEOPARDY is coming on..............

[Rad_J]

***Just pray? Not combined with a study of the scriptures? ***
okay one more.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God...

Does is look like I have never studied the scriptures? Do you think all of those Bible scriptures I have been quoting were found by chance? The Bible says to ask God and Jesus said Ask, and it shall be given you. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you.

[scripter]

Depends

Now that is funny!

[Elsie]

?

[Wrigley]

Point being, when you study the Bible and find that one of the pronouncements of Hinckley goes against what the Bible says, then what?

[Rad_J]

My handbook says limit internet usage. I have told my manager many times that I frequent this site and ESPN message boards. I have permission.

okay, I really must go.

[Wrigley]

http://www.jefflindsay.com/WWisdom.shtml

Words of Wisdom

[scripter]

As I demonstrated to Grig a few weeks ago, you're pulling James 1:5 out of context:

There is a problem when you use a quote to imply or support something the original text never intended. That's pulling it out of context.

The only way to properly quote James 1:5 is when you're going through a trial or you're trying to encourage someone who's going through a trial to ask God for wisdom to persevere. Why? So we may be mature and complete, not lacking anything such as wisdom do endure trials.

You haven't even give your view of what v5-8 mean as a contrast so it's kinda hard to see what you are complaining about. I'm just saying it means what it says.

It only means what it says in the proper context. My view should be obvious from things previously said, including the satirical "Grig method of hermeneutics."

But if it's not obvious, here's a refresher with added notes:

James writes to "the twelve tribes" and given the Jewish nature of the letter, the intended audience would be Jewish Christians. In verse 2-3 James said to consider it pure joy when the Jewish Christians faced trials and temptations. The same root word for trials in verse 2 is also used for tempted in verse 13.

Verse 4 tells us the Jewish Christians should be mature and complete, not lacking anything including wisdom, but to get mature and complete, they should persevere through their trials and temptations. If they lacked the wisdom to endure the trial, James instructs them to ask God for the needed wisdom in verse 5.

Verse 6 tells the intended audience to believe and not doubt when they ask for wisdom to endure the trial and verses 7-8 goes on to explain why this is important.

Verses 9-11 list trials of the rich and poor, and yes even the rich have trials, one of which could be losing their wealth (verse 11).

In verse 12 James reminds the Jewish Christians they will be blessed if they persevere under trial.

That's a short view of my position on James 1-12. There is so much more, so many other little nuggets in there that I don't have the time to get into.

[Wrigley]

Thank you.

[Wrigley]

John Dominic Crossin of the Jesus Seminar folks teaches there.

[restornu]

I would like to read the Journals and Sermonts that the prophets of the Bible gave. But it seems nothing remains!

[Some hope remaining.]

> I have been talking about things like plural marriage, ...

If you want to have this discussion all over again you can get some background info here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/721688/posts?page=209#209

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/721688/posts?page=308#308

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd021.html (click on 'V' on verse 10 for different translations mentioned in above posts)

[Delphinium]

Polygamy might have happened in the Bible but it was not Gods will. He blessed Davids seed through Bathsheba too, but that does not say he condoned how they got together. Gods will is very clear that one man, and one woman shall become one flesh.

How do you explain this from the Book of Mormon? Or is that just an opinion too?

Jacob 2:23-24 "But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. "Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;



The rest of what you wrote is way out there. I will sleep on it, and try to answer in the morning. The Bible says not to babtise the dead. I will find the scripture. You give me the scripture where Paul said to do it? And what makes you think the early Mormons were Levites? Too wierd? Why were the Blacks finally allowed into the Mormon priesthood?

[Delphinium]

Did you ever have a problem with what Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young preached?

[Grig]

"I am talking about sermons given by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many other prominant early Mormon leaders"

Yeah, so what. They were still giving those sermons as themselves and not speaking on God's behalf. It is deceptive to take what they say when speaking for themselves and portray it as if they were speaking on God's behalf. You act as if you think that we should worship their every word they say, if that's what you think it only shows the depth of your misunderstanding.

"Do you take anything from your church leaders today, or just consider what they say to be only their opinion?"

It is very clear when a church leader is speaking for himself and when he is addressing the church in the office to which he was called. It is those hostile to the church that try to blur the line and misrepresent the facts.

[Elsie]

Yeah, so what. They were still giving those sermons as themselves and not speaking on God's behalf.

Oh yeah...

This is JUST the kind of 'leader' I want in MY church!!

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I can GUARANTEE you that if our 'pastor' was even ranting too much in his 'off time' un-biblical stuff, he'd probably be gone come next election!

YOUR guys, on the other hand, were PREACHING this stuff!

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Even Paul commented on the folks who 'checked the Scriptures daily' to see if what they were hearing was right. I guess those early LDS dudes either didn't care, or were too lazy to check, or KNEW that it didn't match and didn't care....

(Did I leave out any OTHER possiblities?)

[Grig]

"The divorce rate among Mormons is similar to the general population"

Last time I checked, the divorce rate among temple married Mormons was WAY lower than that in the general population.

"and have no other way into heaven but that the guy that didn't want her here may want her there.."

You make me think of the Jewish leaders who sat down and wrote pages and pages of what you can and can't do on the sabbath. The gospel is not so legalistic, we are told what the path to follow is and are expected to do our best to follow it. We trust to God to handle the exceptional situations with wisdom, mercy, love and justice.

There is nothing one person can do to hinder the salvation of another person, for God will not hold one person accountable for the actions of another. Temple divorces are commonly given after civil divorces, and even in a worst case situation as you describe, a person who honestly does their best to live the gospel won't be at the mercy of anyone but Christ. In the situation you describe, I think the likely outcome would be that HE would not enter into heaven. Having a temple marriage means NOTHING if you don't live a christ-like life, for for him to do that to her is must unchrist-like.

"That is way the diagnosis of depression is so high in the mormon church"

Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong. You must have forgotten how discredited that story was.

"they are spiritually blackmailed."

Funny, my sister had no trouble divorcing her husband. First you say the divorce rate is the same, then you say they are blackmailed into not divorcing. Make up your mind.

[Elsie]

(All these from here --> http://www.jefflindsay.com/WWisdom.shtml )

I know: "It ain't 'Scripture'"

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7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

You guys REALLY take baths in wine????

 

 

 

 

The Church does not officially require avoidance of caffeine. Many members assume that caffeine should be avoided because it is a stimulant, and a slightly addictive one at that, which is present in tea and coffee, both of which are forbidden drinks.

It looks to me that ICED tea IS permissible, according to the rules set down.

[Elsie]

I would like to read the Journals and Sermonts that the prophets of the Bible gave. But it seems nothing remains!

Do not fret, for Jesus told the leaders that they had the 'Prohpets and the Law', and that they spoke of Him. Evidently the OT that the JEWS were using AT THAT TIME was sufficient to be 'saved', and even THAT was translated into GREEK in a LOT of locations.

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Sometimes, when a NT writer would 'quote' from the OT, the exact words were not all used, but the idea that they represented would be written down instead. (paraphrased)