I think this article sums up the differences between the two schools of thought pretty well.
Thanks for the post...i'll read it later....i used to go to Xenos in the 80's when I lived in Columbus....I agree with them on some things....disagree with them on other things!
And not one of us was invited to the party. 8~(
Dec do you plan to return to the Dark Calvinists question ( and a similar one I asked on where pride came from?
One God. One morality. Decency toward others. Deed over creed.
For Whom Did Christ Die?
1. FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?
"What saith the Scriptures?" (Romans 4:3)
He died for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6).
He died for ALL MEN (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10).
He died for US ALL, for ALL OF US (Isa. 53:6).
He died for the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6).
He died for CHRIST-DENIERS (2 Peter 2:1).
He died for SINNERS (Rom. 5:8).
He died for EVERY MAN (Heb. 2:9).
He died for MANY (Matthew 20:28).
He died for the WORLD (John 6:33,51; John 1:29 and John 3:16).
He died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2).
He died for the WHOLE NATION of Israel (John 11:50-51).
He died for the CHURCH (Eph. 5:25).
He died for His SHEEP (John 10:11).
He died for ME (Gal. 2:20).
The Scriptures teach that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God involved the sin of the world (John 1:29) and that the Saviour’s work of redemption (1 Tim. 2:6; 2 Pet. 2:1), reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:19), and propitiation (1 John 2:2) was accomplished on behalf of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10a). However, the cross-work of Christ is efficient, effectual and beneficial only for those who believe (1 Tim. 4:10b; John 3:16). To say it another way, Christ died a substitutionary death and made a payment for sins which was SUFFICIENT for all men, EFFICIENT only for the elect.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/4wchdied.htm
WHAT IS THE "GIFT OF GOD"?
A Study of Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
What is "THE GIFT OF GOD" which is referred to in these verses? This is a key question which must be carefully answered. There are many who teach that Paul was referring to FAITH as the GIFT OF GOD in this passage. They would say that a person cannot be saved unless God gives the sinner the gift of saving faith. Many of these same teachers [usually those trained in Reformed theology or Covenant theology] insist that regeneration precedes faith (that is, a person must be born again before he can believe!). This view is inconsistent with the clear teaching of the Bible. For example, John 1:12 does not say: "As many as have been regenerated, to them gave He the power to believe on His Name, even to those who have become the children of God." Also John 20:31 says, "believing ye might have life." It does not say, "having life ye might believe" (which is what one would expect it to say if regeneration precedes faith). For a detailed study on this issue, see Does Regeneration Precede Faith?
What is "the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8-9? Is it "faith" or is it something else?
The key to understanding Ephesians 2:8-9 is to correctly identify the antecedent of the pronoun "that" [touto]. Does the pronoun "that" (v.8) refer to faith or does it refer to salvation? There are those who say that "faith" is the gift of God and there are others who say that "salvation" is the gift of God. We will now consider these two ways of interpreting this passage as well as two other views which are variations of these two basic views:
#1-Faith is the Gift of God
"For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THIS FAITH is not of yourselves, this faith is the gift of God, this faith is not of works, lest any man should boast" (in this case the antecedent of the pronoun is identified as "faith").
#2-Salvation is the Gift of God
"For by grace ARE YE SAVED through faith; and THIS SALVATION is not of yourselves, this salvation is the gift of God, this salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast" (in this case the antecedent of the pronoun is identified as "salvation" which is the idea of the main verb "are ye saved").
This view is clearly reflected in the IFCA doctrinal statement [Article IV, Section 1, Paragraph 6] which says, "We believe that SALVATION is the GIFT OF GOD brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." This well-worded statement makes it clear that salvation is the gift of God and this gift is received by personal faith. The gift is salvation; the receiving of that gift is by faith.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/godgift.htm
GOD’S WILLINGNESS and MAN’S UNWILLINGNESS
A Problem For Extreme Calvinists
Introduction
In no uncertain terms the Bible declares that God is a sovereign God who “worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” and who has “done whatsoever He hath pleased” (Eph. 1:11; Psalm 115:3). We must, however, be careful to distinguish between two kinds of decrees, both of which have to do with the sovereign outworking of God’s eternal plan. There are efficacious decrees whereby God purposes to accomplish something directly by Himself (examples of this would be the creation of the world, the sending of the Genesis Flood, judgment upon Babel, the virgin birth, etc.). Man has nothing to do with these things. God’s direct will and activity brings them about. There are also permissive decrees whereby God decides to accomplish His overall purpose of bringing glory to Himself by allowing His creatures to perform in certain ways, even ways that are contrary to His will. He allows His creatures to act in a way that is contrary to the desire and wish of the Creator. This we call sin. God, for example, did not want or wish Adam to sin as indicated in His command to the contrary (Gen. 2:16-17), but God allowed Adam to sin and this terrible sin and momentous fall was part of God’s overall plan whereby He would ultimately bring glory to Himself.
Extreme Calvinists seem to have difficulty in understanding how a sovereign God can “desire” something that will never come to pass. They believe that whatever God wills and desires must come to pass. If God desires to save certain men then these men must be saved. If God so loved the world, then the world must be saved. If Christ died for all men, then all men must be saved. This is how they would reason. Of course, they believe that Christ did not die for all men but that He died only for the elect. They believe that all who Christ died for will be saved (but they say He only died for some and not for all). As one writer has said in light of 1 Timothy 2:4—“What God desires that He will do” (thus he believes that the phrase “all men” in this verse refers only to the elect). They feel that if God wants men to repent, then they will repent (God will work in their hearts and bring about repentance). They reason that if God wants men to believe, then they will believe.
They can’t seem to understand how God could love someone and not save that person. For example, the Scripture says that Christ loved the rich young ruler (Mark 10:21), a man who “went away” and as far as we can tell never followed Christ. A.W. Pink cannot believe that Christ would love a man who would never be saved. He said, “We fully believe that he (the rich young ruler) was one of God’s elect, and was saved sometime after his interview with the Lord.” This is Pink’s theory, but the Scripture provides no support for this view. It is a view based on Pink’s theology, not based on Pink’s Bible.
If God is willing, then the extreme Calvinist believes that man must be willing also, because God will make him so. If man is unwilling, then it must be because God was unwilling to make the person willing. The Scripture, however, teaches that even though God is willing and desirous that men should turn from sin and go in His direction, He often allows men to have their own way and go their own way according to the stubbornness of their own sin-hardened hearts. God was willing, but they were not. God would, but they would not.
Thus our purpose in this study is to examine certain key words (especially in the Old Testament) which demonstrate that God’s compassion and desire and invitation does indeed reach out to all men, even to those who refuse to repent and believe and come to Him. We shall see the wonderful willingness of God in sharp contrast to the stubborn unwillingness of man. We will gain a better appreciation for our Lord’s words in Matthew 23:37 which cannot be fully understood apart from certain Old Testament passages which we shall study. May the Lord open our eyes to these truths.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/willing.htm
