Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[RnMomof7]

Yes, they are because they have been condemned by Adam's sin and thus automatically fall under God's greater grace of the Second Adam (Rom.5:18)

We can agree that Gods grace MAY include all infants..BUT there is no scripture on that dec..

[Jael]

udges 4:21  Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.


:-)

[Jael]

Good point. The grace is not a work. The faith is not a work.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of **him which believeth in Jesus.**


27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith **without the deeds of the law.**

[RnMomof7]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God-so why are you saved and not someone else?
What justice is that?

Gods

You assume that men deserve to be saved ..that they have some right to be saved..it is their due..God owes it to them..

Why me?...I do not know that,but scripture says

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)It is Gods decision

Eph 1:9   Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

I am a sinner saved by the grace of God..

[RnMomof7]

So you deny original sin then? All men are born just like Jesus ...sinless?




 Gen 5:3   And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:  
Job 14:4   Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one.


Job 15:14   What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?


  Psa 51:5   Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
   
  
  Psa 58:3   The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


Rom 5:12   Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

  Eph 2:3   Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[RnMomof7]

Faith is not a work!

Faith that is generated by Gods grace is not a work...Self generated faith is a work of the flesh...and by your defination of election God looks into time and selects men for election based on their own self generated faith..WORKS...

Why would God bother to elect or predestinate one that was going to choose him anyway?

[RnMomof7]

Yes, and that love was expressed for all men (1Jn.2:2, Jn.3:16) in general and for the Church (Christ's bride) in particular (Eph.5:25)

If God loves ALL men without exception what kind of a God would demand double payment for sins..(make men burn for sins already paid for?)

BTW Ed Happy New Year

[Jael]

It isn't that it's my belief, it's what God says.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Jael]

Baptists do not understand the continuity of the covenant and therefore, reject paedobaptism.

You seem confused about continuity, covenants and who they were with or for.

The covenant was with the Jews. The covenant did not continue. But regardless of that, it has nothing to do with baptizing unbelieving babies. That is a heresy straight from Rome. There is no way that sprinkling anyone who isn't saved makes them anything but wet. That isn't baptizing anyway. According to God that is. Rome and her daughters (as usual) teach something else.

[RnMomof7]

According to foreknowledge, just like he said!

Jael if God elects based on what we choose that is a salvation by works..God looks forward in time and sees we will chose him and THEN He predestinates and elects us...That my friend is salvation by works

I will ask you the same thing I asked dec..Why would God have to elect us or predestinate us if He knew we were going to select Him..a bit redundant isn't it?

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

[George W. Bush]

Ian Paisly is a King James Only guy and a solid Calvinist is he not?

Yep.

[Jael]

For the Calvinist faith is a result of salvation, not a cause.

Sadly, you are right. It's like this verse isn't in their Bibles.

Romans 10:16
 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith,
Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Colossians 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[George W. Bush]

Your KJV remarks and Ian Paisley reference led me to Google my way around and I discovered a very nice KJV defense page by David Cloud. Being pretty fundamentalist in outlook, I always liked his writings but this is some of his material that I hadn't found before. Some of your writings here at FR makes me think you might appreciate it very much. Cloud gives a very nice overview of the issues and the personalities and the historical context. Many references to KJV defenders and the fight against modern textual criticism and the corrupted texts are in here. A nice compendium of sources of materials for the classic defense (as compared to Ruckman/Riplinger style KJV defense) are found here. References to the modern translators and their denial of infallibility, inspiration and preservation of the Word are documented. There are even the lesser known references to Spurgeon's position on modernism which has been previously mentioned in other Spurgeon threads.

The writing is in four long web pages but is well worth a read for anyone interested in the textual issues.

EXAMINING "THE KING JAMES ONLY CONTROVERSY" by David Cloud

If there is adequate interest, we might want to start a thread. If Protestants and Baptists are Bible-believing Christians, then it would seem the choice of translations is a vital discussion.

[Jael]

You assume that men deserve to be saved ..that they have some right to be saved..it is their due..God owes it to them..

He's already said that all have sinned. I have already said that everyone deserved Hell. I don't think anyone has said anything even close to your comment above. That's not a charge that can stick. The only thing I can think that comes close is some Calvinist saying that elect unbelievers go to Heaven. Now that's a heresy.

[Quester]

Faith that is generated by Gods grace is not a work ... Self generated faith is a work of the flesh ... and by your defination of election God looks into time and selects men for election based on their own self generated faith ... WORKS ...

No such thing as self(man) generated faith. Every good thing a man/woman possesses (faith included) is the gift of God.

Why would God bother to elect or predestinate one that was going to choose him anyway?

The opposite question ... Why would God set a condition of belief for those He had already chosen.

A bit redundant, isn't it ?

God elects by setting the condition for salvation as belief, in full foreknowledge of who will and who will not believe.

[Jael]

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

What is election according to? Who are the children in this passage? Who on this thread says that anyone is saved by a work? Just the Calvinist who clims that the work of sprinkling a baby engrafts it into Christ.

Elect, amen and yes. According to foreknowledge.

2 Peter 3:9  ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Jael]

So you deny original sin?
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

No one ever denied anything like that. It's just a straw man you folks keep builidng. Just like your saying over and over again I am following ARMINIUS, when you knew it was not true. He's just as much a heretic as Calvin.

If you had read further in Romans you would of read this....

Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All does mean all, whosoever will does mean just what it says. But God says that some will not. Israel would not.

Some will not believe, and obey the Gospel.

2 Thessalonians 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

[RnMomof7]

Elect, amen and yes. According to foreknowledge.

It is good that the flesh of Jael made the right decision so God would choose her

"God chose us because we chose Him first"

Scripture according to Jael

2Ti 1:9   Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[RnMomof7]

How can a man mired in the sin of Adam CHOOSE God so that God can choose him?

[RnMomof7]

He's already said that all have sinned. I have already said that everyone deserved Hell. I don't think anyone has said anything even close to your comment above. That's not a charge that can stick. The only thing I can think that comes close is some Calvinist saying that elect unbelievers go to Heaven. Now that's a heresy.

Here is what DEC said

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God-so why are you saved and not someone else? What justice is that?

That indicates he thinks men deserve salvation that the justice of God demands that men choose who should be pardoned

THAT IS JUSTICE according to dec

NO MAN deserves to be saved..TRUE DIVINE JUSTICE would be to throw all humanity in the pit

Salvation is not about men..it is about the glory of God..." I will have Mercy on WHOM I will have Mercy"

That is Justice according to God

Jael how does a just God demand double payment from some men for their sin..is that "just"