Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[Jael]

I already answered it, in so many of those post that were filled with Scripture that you ignored.

[Jael]

What kind of church do you find most closely follows biblical practice and preachs the Gospel properly?

I really don't think anyone has it all right. And it gets worse and worse as the day approaches.

[MarMema]

Oh, dear. Have I perhaps been too outspoken again?

LOL. No, in the Grand Inquisitor Christ returns to earth in the midst of the Spanish Inquisition. And the head inquisitor imprisons Christ and chastizes him.

One of my favorite lines is when the (roman catholic) grand inquisitor tells Christ, "Everything has already been handed over from you to the pope. You may as well not come at all now." I am not quoting exactly here, just close.

Doestoevsky, you may or may not know, was far from fond of the RC church. A favorite quote of his I cannot find right now but it is about atheism being better than Roman Catholoicism because in the latter the throne of Christ has been usurped by er, the pope, which I seem to recall he describes as depraved among other things...
"Roman Catholicism, which long ago sold out Christ for earthly rule, has compelled mankind to turn away from itself; thus she is the prime cause of Europe's materialism and atheism"
""the Pope will go to all... on foot and barefoot, and he will tell them that everything the socialists teach and strive for is contained in the Gospel; that up until now the time had not been ripe for them to learn about this, but that now the time has come and he, the Pope, will surrender Christ to them," saying: " 'What you need is a united front against the enemy. Unite, then, under my power, since I alone among all the powers and potentates of the world --am universal: and let us go together!"

The idea of religious freedom is a main theme in the book itself, with the general idea that many men prefer to be ruled by another (the pope) than be free to make their own religious choices.
Er, Doestevsky was an Eastern Orthodox Christian, btw.

And if you think that last "prediction" of Feodor's is kind of eerie you are not alone.

[MarMema]

In the grim person of the aged and bloodless Spanish cardinal Inquisitor, Dostoevsky has reduced the Catholic Church to a Christless institution that delivers bread to its faithful only in exchange for a surrender of their freedom.

[MarMema]

So what's the point, you might be thinking? The point is that Eastern Orthodoxy has watched the RC church for the last few hundred years and in some ways responded to what they saw by remaining committed to certain principles of religious freedom.
Particularly no clericalism, no worship of man, no worship of icons, either, and especially no authoritative, judgemental leaders telling this and that Christian they must leave the church because they are, well, such terrible sinners. LOL.
My pitiful attempt at a reply to your comment on freedom, and please forgive any defensiveness that may have crept into it without my meaning for it to be there. I have become very tired of certain RC freepers telling "us" we are damned because we have Christians in our church who have been divorced.

[the_doc]

Ian Paisley would say that you illustrate Calvinism beautifully.

[RnMomof7]

I am on my way to bed..Jael obviously scripture is read by different people different ways ..how do you read it in scripture? How do you see God electing man?

[MarMema]

Hey. It's too early to go to bed.

[Rambler]

Erasmus was well-acquainted with a far larger number of manuscripts of the ancient Greek church (received text, majority text, traditional text, whichever you prefer to call it).

I think this statement says it all. You still don't know what you are talking about. The KJV is derived from the Received Text, which is primarily the result of Erasmus' work. Again, it is not an ancient Byzantine manuscript used by Erasmus, the Received Text is the result of Erasmus' work dating to the 16th century.

The Majority Text is not the same as the Received Text, although it closely resembles it. It is also derived from manuscripts dating from medieval times, and it also relies heavily on Erasmus' work. Hodges & Farstad say that their work is representative of the Majority Text. As far as your term "traditional text" that is wide open as to meaning and has different definitions to different users so you need to be more specific.

Erasmus chose the very best of the manuscripts as his primary sources.

The very best he had available to him at the time. And as far as Erasmus, please don't lecture me on his scholarship. I didn't have to go look it up as you just did. I have never doubted his genius.

[RnMomof7]

Not in Buffalo..12;12..nite girl

[Jael]

According to foreknowledge, just like he said!

[Jael]

For such a smart man, he loses me with that baby dipping silliness. It's almost enough to make me lose respect for him. Ever listened to him call the Pope an antichrist at the EC parliment?

[Cleburne]

The Grand Inquisitor passage is, in my opinion, Dostoevsky's masterpiece alongside the Dream of Canna (I believe that's the proper title). The Grand Inquisitor was featured in my literature book a year or so back; I read it a couple times and then went out and read through all his major works in one summer. I wouldn't recommend that course to everyone, as he can be horribly depressing, though there is always a glimmer of hope somewhere (though in some of his books it's rather artificial). Dostoevsky had the uncanny ability of rendering the reality of man's sin in a way that is immposible to escape, and often rather unsettling.

[xzins]

You've said Baptism doesn't save anyone AND there's no power in it AND it isn't necessary, but you've also said that OP is a heretic because his church practices infant baptism.

So how does an impotent, neutral, unnecessary symbol turn a believer in Jesus into a heretic?

[MarMema]

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

Thank you Jael, I should have said it is up to Christ.

[Jael]

Because they claim it does have power to save an unbeliever, they claim it is necessary, and they claim it has some kind of power. That is a heresy. No one who is not saved is baptized. It is especially heretical to baptize an unbelieving infant and claim said infant is now engrafted into God by the work of the sewer company!!!!

Get with the program!!!!!! It's a hersey!!!!! It comes straight from Rome!!!!

[Jael]

"I should have said it is up to Christ."

It's already decided though, before you die. You will be judge, not on your good works, but on whether or not you trusted Christ alone for your salvation. If you added anything to him, like sacraments and works, you are lost.

[xzins]

power to save an unbeliever

No one has said that.

I will take the liberty of speaking for OP...he can correct me if I'm wrong.

They believe that the child must accept Christ for himself/herself once they come to an accountable/confirmable age.

The point of baptism of children is not salvation. It is initiation into they Church as a "probationer" under the guidance of parents. In other words, the children of believers truly are part of the church and truly do have God paying special attention to them during their years of innocence.

[MarMema]

You will be judge, not on your good works, but on whether or not you trusted Christ alone for your salvation. If you added anything to him, like sacraments and works, you are lost.

Thanks for sharing this belief of yours.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

However, there is abundant evidence and the testimony of reliable witnesses to establish that Erasmus was well-acquainted with a far larger number of manuscripts of the ancient Greek church (recieved text, majority text, traditional text, whichever you prefer to call it). His own notes indicate them and reference them. His research into the writings of the fathers of the ancient church were used to confirm many problematic passages. More to the point, Erasmus chose the very best of the manuscripts as his primary sources. It is just a shame that he could not seem to find one for the last page of Revelation. He was forced to translate the Latin Vulgate back into Greek and use that as his text. The result being that the last six verses of Revelation in the Textus Receptus, which was primarily based upon the work of Erasmus, find witness in no Greek manuscript what-so-ever. While i do believe that God preserved His word, it stretches credibility to believe that He used Erasmus in order to rewrite what He said through the Apostle John. Come now W, that is just a bit beyond don't you think. btw, i could not get this to space properly, how does one insert spaces in HTML?