Do babies go to Heaven?

[PFKEY]

Hope no one minds the vanity too much.

I was thinking last night about this idea and was trying to make it jive somewhat with the notion of predeterminationalism if that is the correct word.

Also was curious regarding what the various Christian denominations taught on this subject.

[Jael]

No, it isn't one or the other. My doctrine and beliefs never sprang from any Reformers, or any prots.

I don't believe what either one taught, never have, never will, never did.

[Jael]

I just can't believe the line didn't make more Catholics mad. Guess they avoiding this thread.

[Jael]

The wonderful Dr. Paisley is only a slight heretic. Anyone who did what he did at the EC rocks. I have an agreement with a few Calvinist, he's one of them. The good he does makes up for the rotten Calvinism.

[Jael]

YOU have to start with what election starts with. What's it due to? www.justbible.com

[Jael]

Umm, let's unwrap the package.

Get your Bible. Or go to www.justbible.com

The thief, was he immediately taken up into heaven-- after all the Lord could have sent him, tout suite.

Why should God have done that? That has only happened to two people. And they certainly were not thieves.

Or did he hang there, suffering with and alongside of the Lord, and share in the crucifixion?

He suffered for his crimes. He had nothing at all to do with Jesus Christ being there. One deserved to be there, one did not. The thief didn't share in Jesus death for your sins.

What an ineffable honor!

There is no honor in the cross, only shame.

His sins were forgiven, no punishment was even due him, was there?

If you commit a crime, you still owe your pound of flesh to the law, and to justice. No matter if your sins are forgiven or not.

[Jael]

Baptism is a symbol, it has no power. It's an outward sign, not some kind of magic taking place.

[Jael]

I was checking to see how far she would go with her "proper baptism is the cause of salvation" ideology.

That isn't my doctrine. Baptism doesn't save anyone, it never has and it never will.

[Jael]

It is up to God to decide.

John 5:22  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

John 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[Jael]

BUT MPI..that would mean that they have to admit they believe in a salvation by works...so there is the sound of silence........................

Tacky, tacky. You know I don't believe in salvation by works.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Jael]

Baptism is an ordinance of a new believer into the priesthood of believers. Really?

[Jael]

By way of comparison, let's look at the modernists Westcott & Hort. I would not even consider them Christian.

Amen. You might have some sense after all. How far do you go with this?

[MarMema]

I find the Christian liberty among the Orthodox somewhat surprising even though a friend of mine (Orthodox sympathizer but Episcopal member) had told me something of this positive aspect of the Orthodox as compared to the Roman.

I had forgotten that I wanted to ask if you read/have read any Doestoevsky? In particular, The Grand Inquisitor from the Brothers Karamazov?

[George W. Bush]

Really?

Yep.

Well, that's my short definition.

You know, Jael, you never state what you believe in any depth, don't identify a particular church whose general theology you find agreeable with scripture...

What kind of church do you find most closely follows biblical practice and preachs the Gospel properly?

[George W. Bush]

How far do you go with this?

Westcott & Hort? I think they're theological scumbags. It's difficult to imagine how they could have been more dishonest in the way the presented their work and inserted it in the Revised version. I think they're probably in hell for what they did. There is really almost no indication that they held any significant Christian belief whatsoever, judging by their own writings. There are even Roman popes that had a far better chance to be saved than those two. I flagged ftD to this post. He's also opposed to the modern versions.

[George W. Bush]

any Doestoevsky?

Crime and Punishment in college. Can't remember much about it. Somehow, it just didn't grab me. Kind of a depressing read.

...The Grand Inquisitor...

Oh, dear. Have I perhaps been too outspoken again?

[RnMomof7]

Yes jael you do you agree with most Arminians...so you do not use the name but it is what you are..

Jael is it Biblical to have people in authority over you? Is it biblical to have a gospel that is correct?

It seems to me you belong to a church with no accountibility or oversight..it is every man for himself..that is spiritually dangerous

[RnMomof7]

YOU have to start with what election starts with. What's it due to?

You answer that and we will discuss it..

[Jael]

Nope, I don't agree with either man's doctrine. I know what I believe and have stated such. Don't try and label me with some half baked Prot label. It will never stick.

What is the Church?

1. First of all, the church is not just a building.

   People sometimes speak of the church downtown, etc. Of course, we understand that they are referring to the building that the church meets in. However, that is not the "the Church" at all, but the meeting place of the Church.

2. Secondly, the church is not a religious organization

   For example the Roman Catholic Church is not the true church, but a counterfeit. It is the false church of the antichrist.

3. Thirdly, the true church is a spiritual body.

This body is made up of all Christians who have been born again during the Church Age and joined together by the Holy Spirit, in Christ.

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." — Romans 12:5

"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." —I Corinthians 12:27

"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

—Ephesians 1:20-23

It is very clear from the Bible that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is the Head of the Church, and He alone has the absolute authority to rule over it.

II. What Does the Headship of Christ Mean?

In the above scriptures the New Testament church is likened to a body with Christ as its Head.

1. A head is necessary to a body. Cutting off the head is the surest way of ensuring the death of a body. Any so-called church without Christ as its Head is dead !

2. A head controls the body.

Every muscle and action of the human body is dependent upon the head. The head is the "control center," and this is exactly what Christ must be to His church.

III. What Are The Implications of the Headship of Christ?

The Lord Jesus Christ is not a figurehead; He is the living, operative, and preeminent Head over every New Testament church. What does this mean in practice? For any Baptist church, the implications of the Headship of Christ are that:

1. A church is executive, not legislative.

   A local Baptist church administers Christ’s laws. Therefore, no local church has the right to make any resolution that is not in conformity to God’s Word. This is in contrast to the ex-Cathedra pronouncements, synods, councils, and sessions conducted by men who make rules and regulations which are then dictated to their "churches."

2. A church may involve itself only in the work of Christ.

   When a man’s body does not respond to what his head is telling him, he is very sick. Likewise a church should not involve itself in extra-Biblical works, for its only command is to be "always abounding in the work of the Lord" (I Corinthians 15:58), "as My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you" (John 20:21), and this means doing the things the Lord did on earth during His public ministry — that is, preaching, baptizing, and teaching.

3. Each member is answerable to Jesus Christ.

   Apart from the pastor, church members do not have to answer to anyone regarding spiritual things — only to Christ. I Corinthians 3:9-17 refers to the church as a spiritual building, and tells us that we are to be judged according to how we build up our church.

4. Each member has a duty to seek the will of Christ.

We see therefore, that there can be only one real head of the church. On earth the Lord chooses pastors to lead the local assemblies. Nowhere is the government involved, and the church is never to go to the government for aid, but to Heaven alone.

IV. Who Established The Church?

It is Christ Himself who established this spiritual organism. Here we want to emphasize that the church (though often called an organization) is actually a living organism with a living head. One becomes part of it only by the new birth.

V. Who Has The Authority To Rule The Church?

Jesus Christ is the Head of the New Testament church.

"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." — Ephesians 1:20-23

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." — Ephesians 5:23

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

— Colossians 1:13-18

In I Peter 2:25 the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as our "Shepherd" and "Bishop." In I Peter 5:4 He is called the "Chief Shepherd" in a context which makes Him THE PASTOR of every Baptist church. While the word pastor means Shepherd, the pastors of Baptist churches are properly known as under-shepherds. Under the authority of Christ, they rule over the church.

A necessary factor in organization is leadership. This is exhibited in the many forms of worldly organizations: An army needs officers. A sporting team needs a captain. A business needs management, and so on. In each case the body concerned may function, but certainly not as well or efficiently as it would with good leadership. In the same way a church will only be able to serve God if it has God-given leadership.

In God’s chain of command, scriptural leadership brings order out of confusion. When sin first entered in, God put the man over the woman to restore order in a state of chaos, Genesis 3:16; I Corinthians 11:3. God placed parents in a position of authority over their children to ensure orderly development, Exodus 20;12; Psalm 58:3; Proverbs 22:6. God ordained human government to prevent anarchy, Judges 21:25; Romans 13:1-7. In the same way the Lord has set pastors over His churches to "set in order " things that may be wanting, Titus 1:5.

Scriptural church government places a pastor in the position of oversight (Acts 20:28), leadership (Ephesians 4:11), and rulership (Hebrews 13:7, 17) over the congregation. Pastoral leadership is an integral part of church government.

Dr. Linton Smith

[Jael]

I'm some partial to KJVO Independent Baptist churches... some. Most I find to be just as apostate as the SBC on every corner.

I like home fellowships the best because you can lose all the "crud" that usually comes going building crazy/


I don't like the fact that most baptists reject the roles of elders. I think it's pretty vital. But the people that do have elders are messed up in other areas, so that isn't my main like-ability point. :-)

I am a Bible Believer, pure and simply. I don't think any denomination saves the first person. It never will.

[RnMomof7]

Did not Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, give a structure and order to the new church?