"If We Ignore the Mother, We Can't See the Child"

Zenit News Agency ^ | December 26, 2002 | Scott Hahn

[NYer]

Roots of Marian Devotion Go Back to Old Testament

ROME, DEC. 25, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Scholar Scott Hahn roundly rejects the idea held by some outside the Church that Catholics, by honoring Mary, somehow detract from God.

"The glories we honor in Mary are merely her own reflections of God's glory," says the author of books such as "Rome Sweet Home" and "Hail, Holy Queen." Here, the one-time Presbyterian minister spells out his ideas.

Q: Why do you say that Catholics should love Mary a lot more than they do?

Hahn: Because God does! And he wants us to love her as much as he does.

At the time of the annunciation, the angel Gabriel prophesied that all generations would call Mary blessed. In our generation, we need to fulfill that prophesy. We need to call her blessed. We need to honor her -- again, because God did.

Jesus himself, as a faithful Jew, kept the Fourth Commandment and
honored his mother. Since Christ is our brother, she is our mother too. Indeed, at the end of John's Gospel, Jesus named her as the mother of all of us beloved disciples. So we too have a duty to honor her.

If we look back into the biblical history of ancient Israel, we discover that the Chosen People always paid homage not only to their king, but also to the mother of the king. The "gebirah," the queen mother, loomed large in the affections of Israelites. And the evangelists are very much aware of this.

In Matthew's Gospel especially, we find Jesus portrayed as the royal Son of David and Mary as queen mother. The Wise Men, for example, traveled far to find the Child King with his mother.

We find the mother of the Son of David portrayed in a similar way in the Book of Revelation, Chapter 12. There she is shown to be crowned with 12 stars, for the 12 tribes of Israel. The New Testament writers, you see, were careful to show us Mary's important place in the kingdom, and how we should love and honor her.

In my personal life, I've found the Blessed Mother to be a great intercessor, as she was at the wedding feast in Cana.

Why should we love Mary more? Because of God's grace -- she exemplifies it! Because of God's Word -- she teaches it! And because she is God's masterpiece. The Scriptures provide too many reasons to love her; I couldn't list them in so short a space.

Q: What are the main objections that non-Catholics present against Marian doctrine and devotion?

Hahn: Some non-Catholics believe that, by honoring Mary, we're somehow detracting from God. We're not. The glories we honor in Mary are merely her own reflections of God's glory.

St. Bonaventure put it very well when he said that God created all things not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to share it. Mary's sinlessness itself was a grace from God.

St. Augustine said: When God rewards us for our labors, he is only crowning his work in us. When God exalted the lowly virgin of Nazareth, he was crowning the greatest of his creations. When we honor Mary, we recognize God's work, and we praise him.

Others object to the Church's dogma of the immaculate conception -- that Mary was without sin from the very first moment of her life. They claim that, if this were true, she would have no need of a redeemer, no need for Jesus. But that's not true. Mary's immaculate conception was itself a fruit of Jesus' redemption.

Even today, we can see that Christ saves some people by deliverance and others by preservation -- some turn away from a life of crime, others are preserved from it by their good upbringing. Mary was preserved by a singular grace. Mary, you see, is dependent upon God for everything. She, by her own admission, is his handmaid.

Some very misguided people try to claim that Catholics make a goddess of the Blessed Virgin. But that is an abominable fiction. As much as we exalt Mary above our own sinful selves, we recognize that she is more like us than she is like God. She is still a creature, though a most wonderful creature. God himself exalted her to show us both the greatness of our human nature and the all-surpassing greatness of divine grace.

Even the early Protestant reformers never called for a wholesale rejection of the Marian dogmas. Luther and Calvin believed, for example, in Mary's perpetual virginity. Luther even believed in the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception, centuries before the Church solemnly defined it. Not until later generations would Christians come to such a far-reaching rejection of Mary's place in salvation history.

Q: How does Mary help us to understand the mystery of Christmas?

Hahn: Well, it's impossible for us to imagine the Christmas story without her. Her consent, her "yes," made that day possible. When God became man, he was born of a woman, born under the law. Christ is at the center of Christmas, but he chose not to be alone at the center. As a baby, he needed a mother to hold him. If we choose to ignore the mother, we can't see the Child.

In the stories leading up to Christmas, we encounter Mary as the model disciple. God found her humility irresistible, and we have to imitate her. God empowered her to love his Son as much as he deserves to be loved. And so we imitate her in that as well. Mary helps us to understand the mystery of Christmas because she received the greatest Christmas present ever, and she gave it to the world, just as we should.

Q: Why do you most converts to Catholicism have such an intense devotion to the Blessed Virgin?

Hahn: I can only speak for myself. I discovered the Catholic Church as not only the family of God, but as my family too. Mary is not only the mother of Jesus, but my mother too.

That's a wonderful discovery to make so late in one's life. So maybe we're making up for lost time! Or maybe we have a special affection for the practices that are distinctive to the ancient Christian faith -- the practices that we missed in our own upbringing.

[sitetest]

Dear angelo,

"Sounds positively Mormon, when put that way..."

"This probably jumps out at me more today because I've been discussing the nature of God with LDSers over the past week."

So what do you suggest? That we charge them royalties?

;-)


sitetest

[malakhi]

Scientists are funny that way.

As I said, you are free to believe whatever you want. I posted those links for those who might be interested in a less credulous look at the subject.

Your comments on the tilma remind me of something I posted on The Neverending Story last week about the Shroud of Turin.

To: RobbyS; OLD REGGIE

Here is an example. Some claim to see Roman coins over the eyes in this image. Some claim even to be able to read the date inscribed on the coins.



Here is one person's response to this:

Barrie Schwortz, an official photographer for STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Project), disagrees with the identity of the coins. Having studied numerous high quality negatives of the Shroud made in 1978, he concludes:

My personal opinion, based on my photographic experience and my close examination of the Shroud itself, is that the weave of the cloth is far too coarse to resolve the rather subtle and very tiny inscription on a dime sized ancient coin...What he (Filas) saw as inscriptions, I saw as random shapes and noise. Such is the subjective nature of image analysis. For these reasons however, I cannot accept these coin "inscriptions" as viable evidence of a first century Shroud "date"...I do not argue that there appears to be something on the eyes of the man of the Shroud, and it may well be coins or potshards, since they were used in some first century burial rituals, but I do not believe we can resolve coin inscriptions.

http://www.shroudstory.com/coins.htm

30627 posted on 12/26/2002 4:31 PM CST by angelo

[malakhi]

So what do you suggest? That we charge them royalties? ;-)

LOL, only seems fair. ;o)

[sitetest]

Dear sandyeggo,

You're welcome.

Thank you for the compliment.


sitetest

[RnMomof7]

I don't want to be a god. I lack the resume and the qualifications.

Me too..but actually the EOs have a unique doctrine on oneness with God that is actually very non cultish...I have read it a couple of times and although we may have a different take on it they are not in the line of the Mormons or Armstrongs

[RnMomof7]

Since everything you know about Jesus Christ came from the Catholic church. Including your Bible.

Knowing is not the same as believing ..even the demons KNOW

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble

I believe Mary was a holy, humble woman ..a model of true submission..I can love and respect her without attributing  to her the qualities of God cap

[RobbyS]

I believe God's Word. What I do not believe is your interpretation of it.

[RobbyS]

Obviously you will not listen to what I say unless I accept your use of terms. I do not believe either the angels nor the saints pervade the universe, but I do not believe, as you seem to, that they are confined-- as we are-- to a small corner of space and time. Nor do I believe that Jesus is parked somewhere in heaven, waiting for his cue to come again in judgment. I put absolute value on no cosmology, ancient or modern, but if one does accept for the moment the notion of the universe as a self-contained entity, that spiritual beings are not confined to nor bound by its laws, but as subject only to the will of God.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I was reading in Luke this morning and came across something that in all the Mary discussions I have participated in I have never heard this particular verse discussed. It may have been and I just missed it, but I found it interesting and wondered if it was in the Catholic Bible.

Luke 11:27-28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and siad unto him. Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

In the notes in my bible, KJV, Yea can also be translated "More then that"

Does this verse say anything to you about how Mary should be view?

Becky

[RnMomof7]

So the question remains do you beoieve that Mary and the Saints have the atributes of God that they can be present and hear the prayers of millions at one time?
I posted an article from the Catholic encycleop;dia..not my words your churches words..

B. IMMENSITY AND UBIQUITY, OR OMNIPRESENCE

Space, like time, is one of the measures of the finite, and as by the attribute of eternity, we describe God's transcendence of all temporal limitations, so by the attribute of immensity we express His transcendent relation to space. There is this difference, however, to be noted between eternity and immensity, that the positive aspect of the latter is more easily realized by us, and is sometimes spoken of, under the name of omnipresenee, or ubiquity, as if it were a distinct attribute. Divine immensity means on the one hand that God is necessarily present everywhere in space as the immanent cause and sustainer of creatures, and on the other hand that He transcends the limitations of actual and possible space, and cannot be circumscribed or measured or divided by any spatial relations. To say that God is immense is only another way of saying that He is both immanent and transcendent in the sense already explained. As some one has metaphorically and paradoxically expressed it, "God's centre is everywhere, His circumference nowhere."

That God is not subject to spatial limitations follows from His infinite simplicity; and that He is truly present in every place or thing -- that He is omnipresent or ubiquitous -- follows from the fact that He is the cause and ground of all reality. According to our finite manner of thinking we conceive this presence of God in things spatial as being primarily a presence of power and operation -- immediate Divine efficiency being required to sustain created beings in existence and to enable them to act; but, as every kind of Divine action ad extra is really identical with the Divine nature or essence, it follows that God is really present everywhere in creation not merely per virtuten et operationem, but per essentiam. In other words God Himself, or the Divine nature, is in immediate contact with, or immanent in, every creature -- conserving it in being and enabling it to act. But while insisting on this truth we must, if we would avoid contradiction, reject every form of the pantheistic hypothesis. While emphasizing Divine immanence we must not overlook Divine transcendence.

There is no lack of Scriptural or ecclesiastical testimonies asserting God's immensity and ubiquity. It is enough to refer for example to:

* Heb. i, 3 iv, 12, 13
* Acts, xvii, 24, 27, 28;
* Eph., i, 23;
* Col., i, ;6, 17,
* Ps. cxxxviii, 7-12;
* Job, xii, 10, etc.

[MarMema]

which began to remind me of the shrieking of Fruma-Sarah in Tevye's dream

LOL. That is a favorite in our home. We often make use of it to demonstrate a firm committment to something. "Pearls, pearls, PEARLS!!"

[MarMema]

what the Orthodox believe

With thanks to Rnmom for her wonderful open mind and love of other Christians.

"It is fascinating to observe the total absence of the doctrine of justification by faith in large segments of Orthodox history and theology. Instead, the idea of theosis or "deification" takes center stage. The startling aphorism—attributed to many early church fathers, including the champion of trinitarianism, Athanasius—summed it up well: "God became man so that men might become gods."

In fact, theosis enjoys the support of Scripture, as in 2 Peter 1:4: "[God] has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature…." Put another way, the Son of God descended and became a man, that we humans might ascend and become like Christ. The legal framework for understanding the work of Christ is played down and our mystical union with God is emphasized.

But what does it mean to "become God"? First, Orthodoxy categorically repudiates any hint of pantheism; theosis does not mean the essence of our human nature is lost. Rather, theosis speaks to believers' real, genuine, and mystical union with God whereby we become more and more like Christ and move from corruption to immortality. As we avail ourselves of God's grace and live lives of spiritual vigilance, we hope for what Maximus the Confessor (580-662) described as the "glorious attainment of likeness to God, insofar as this is possible with man."

[RobbyS]

Why do you this this denigates Mary? He was saying, was he not, that the kingdom of God is a realm more important than the world we live in, and that spiritual relationships more important than carnal ones. That is why virginity was more highly valued among early Christians than marriage. Led me add this: in the middle east, among the semitic peoples such as the Arabs, family relationships are very close. A cousin is normally closer to an Arab than a brother is to Anglo-Americans. What Jesus is saying here that our spiritual relationship with our Christians brothers should come before our blood relationships. This statement was far more startling to his Jewish hearers than it is to us.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Why do you this this denigates Mary?

I don't think this. Sorry if that is what it seemed to imply.

My intrepratation is that believers are as blessed as Mary. That Mary is not more blessed then any other person in Jesus' eyes.

Becky

[Joshua]

"As I pointed out above - every single statement I parodied in my post is something that has been said to me in deadly earnest by some ignorant poster or other. I just transliterated it into hillbilly English - otherwise it is what it is."

For your information Einstein a parody closely imitates the one you're trying to ridicule. I've never seen anyone on these threads that match your imitation.

What you did was to take a group of people that you feel are below you and play on their handicap as a means for cheap laughs. It would come as no surprise that someone ignorant enough to do this would be to stupid to realize what they've done. The people that laughed at your sick attempt at humor are just as ignorant and stupid as you are.

Why didn't you do your so called parody in black street slang? Think of the laughs ebonics would get. To much of a coward to face the consequences of that?

Jesus loves those "hillbillies" They're welcome in His Kingdom. Maybe you should add that thought as one of your mysteries to meditate on next time you piously finger your prayer beads.

"Your cute little last comment is typical of the attitude I parodied: you sanctimoniously wrap yourself in a cloak of righteousness and take it upon yourself to exclude all Catholics (not just annoying old me) from Christian fellowship"

You missed the point. I never said all catholics. The point was that you would be repulsive in any denomination.

[Joshua]

"I wish you would be consistent. If Mary is in heaven, she has powers that we cannot imagine"

Tell us what those powers are. Is she omnipotent, omniscience, or omnipresent? She would have to be one of the above to be able to hear all prayers at all times.

If you can't answer this conclusively then it would appear that her mediatrix ability is a deduction of your theology...

[wideawake]

Nice rant.

I have been told, point blank, that Mary was just a sinner like everybody else and only a randomly chosen recptacle for Christ's birth.

I have been told by a poster that he didn't read the article he was criticizing because there was no need to read anything by a Catholic since it was, for that reason alone, automatically wrong.

I have been told by a poster that since the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible no Christian should use it to describe God.

I have been told incessantly that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon by many, many posters.

I have had the "Bible Codes" quoted to me as a proxy for Biblical prophecy on various aoccasions by people who claimed I was superstitious.

I have been told that the "Bible Codes" show that there is no such thing as the Catholic Church.

I have been told that Kennedy was assassinated by Jesuits because he refused to go along with some mythical Vatican plot.

And I have been told that refusing to accept certain premises as givens (i.e. that the deuterocanon is apocryphal) means that I have rejected an obvious truism.

Jesus loves those "hillbillies" They're welcome in His Kingdom.

The ones who accept Catholics as brothers in Christ certainly are.

Why didn't you do your so called parody in black street slang?

Because I wasn't parodying Khalid Muhammad.

You missed the point. I never said all catholics.

Now here's a misleading statement. Let's look at what you said:

I'm glad you're Catholic. I would hate to have to defend such a bigot as a brother in the Lord.

That is, since Catholics aren't my brothers in Christ, it's a good thing this evil guy called wideawake is one of them. That way I don't have to defend his wicked, wicked ways.

The fact is, Joshua, there are a good number of people on these boards - like berned or Chancellor Palpatine for example - who routinely use the nastiest language against Catholics imaginable.

Yet - and I find this to be most interesting - when I playact at saying the things they say for real, you get upset. Not when they actually say them.

I've never seen you post to a Protestant who is calling the Pope an antichrist something along the lines of "Hey buddy, back off. They may be wrong - but you shouldn't throw around language like that."

Selective indignation. Not all that convincing.

[Jael]

to go chat with occultists on-line

To people who said "Witchcraft is not real" I said "Go ask one."

So stop being intentionally deceptive.