"If We Ignore the Mother, We Can't See the Child"

Zenit News Agency ^ | December 26, 2002 | Scott Hahn

[NYer]

Roots of Marian Devotion Go Back to Old Testament

ROME, DEC. 25, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Scholar Scott Hahn roundly rejects the idea held by some outside the Church that Catholics, by honoring Mary, somehow detract from God.

"The glories we honor in Mary are merely her own reflections of God's glory," says the author of books such as "Rome Sweet Home" and "Hail, Holy Queen." Here, the one-time Presbyterian minister spells out his ideas.

Q: Why do you say that Catholics should love Mary a lot more than they do?

Hahn: Because God does! And he wants us to love her as much as he does.

At the time of the annunciation, the angel Gabriel prophesied that all generations would call Mary blessed. In our generation, we need to fulfill that prophesy. We need to call her blessed. We need to honor her -- again, because God did.

Jesus himself, as a faithful Jew, kept the Fourth Commandment and
honored his mother. Since Christ is our brother, she is our mother too. Indeed, at the end of John's Gospel, Jesus named her as the mother of all of us beloved disciples. So we too have a duty to honor her.

If we look back into the biblical history of ancient Israel, we discover that the Chosen People always paid homage not only to their king, but also to the mother of the king. The "gebirah," the queen mother, loomed large in the affections of Israelites. And the evangelists are very much aware of this.

In Matthew's Gospel especially, we find Jesus portrayed as the royal Son of David and Mary as queen mother. The Wise Men, for example, traveled far to find the Child King with his mother.

We find the mother of the Son of David portrayed in a similar way in the Book of Revelation, Chapter 12. There she is shown to be crowned with 12 stars, for the 12 tribes of Israel. The New Testament writers, you see, were careful to show us Mary's important place in the kingdom, and how we should love and honor her.

In my personal life, I've found the Blessed Mother to be a great intercessor, as she was at the wedding feast in Cana.

Why should we love Mary more? Because of God's grace -- she exemplifies it! Because of God's Word -- she teaches it! And because she is God's masterpiece. The Scriptures provide too many reasons to love her; I couldn't list them in so short a space.

Q: What are the main objections that non-Catholics present against Marian doctrine and devotion?

Hahn: Some non-Catholics believe that, by honoring Mary, we're somehow detracting from God. We're not. The glories we honor in Mary are merely her own reflections of God's glory.

St. Bonaventure put it very well when he said that God created all things not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to share it. Mary's sinlessness itself was a grace from God.

St. Augustine said: When God rewards us for our labors, he is only crowning his work in us. When God exalted the lowly virgin of Nazareth, he was crowning the greatest of his creations. When we honor Mary, we recognize God's work, and we praise him.

Others object to the Church's dogma of the immaculate conception -- that Mary was without sin from the very first moment of her life. They claim that, if this were true, she would have no need of a redeemer, no need for Jesus. But that's not true. Mary's immaculate conception was itself a fruit of Jesus' redemption.

Even today, we can see that Christ saves some people by deliverance and others by preservation -- some turn away from a life of crime, others are preserved from it by their good upbringing. Mary was preserved by a singular grace. Mary, you see, is dependent upon God for everything. She, by her own admission, is his handmaid.

Some very misguided people try to claim that Catholics make a goddess of the Blessed Virgin. But that is an abominable fiction. As much as we exalt Mary above our own sinful selves, we recognize that she is more like us than she is like God. She is still a creature, though a most wonderful creature. God himself exalted her to show us both the greatness of our human nature and the all-surpassing greatness of divine grace.

Even the early Protestant reformers never called for a wholesale rejection of the Marian dogmas. Luther and Calvin believed, for example, in Mary's perpetual virginity. Luther even believed in the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception, centuries before the Church solemnly defined it. Not until later generations would Christians come to such a far-reaching rejection of Mary's place in salvation history.

Q: How does Mary help us to understand the mystery of Christmas?

Hahn: Well, it's impossible for us to imagine the Christmas story without her. Her consent, her "yes," made that day possible. When God became man, he was born of a woman, born under the law. Christ is at the center of Christmas, but he chose not to be alone at the center. As a baby, he needed a mother to hold him. If we choose to ignore the mother, we can't see the Child.

In the stories leading up to Christmas, we encounter Mary as the model disciple. God found her humility irresistible, and we have to imitate her. God empowered her to love his Son as much as he deserves to be loved. And so we imitate her in that as well. Mary helps us to understand the mystery of Christmas because she received the greatest Christmas present ever, and she gave it to the world, just as we should.

Q: Why do you most converts to Catholicism have such an intense devotion to the Blessed Virgin?

Hahn: I can only speak for myself. I discovered the Catholic Church as not only the family of God, but as my family too. Mary is not only the mother of Jesus, but my mother too.

That's a wonderful discovery to make so late in one's life. So maybe we're making up for lost time! Or maybe we have a special affection for the practices that are distinctive to the ancient Christian faith -- the practices that we missed in our own upbringing.

[RnMomof7]

Because of the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, 8 MILLION Aztecs converted to Christianity, in a few years. They had been conducting human sacrifices and worshiping demons.

They became Catholics right? LOL..work based unscripitual salvation ..the demons love it..they are not threatened by it at all

al question about Our Lady. She never claims any credit for herself. At the wedding at Cana she said "Do whatever He tells you." That's what Our Lady always says. The confusion comes in because people take a very narrow/biased view of Our Lady, afraid to look at the whole picture.

You are right the REAL mary always pointed people TO her son..not herself as you have done saying SHE is the way and the light..your Mary gives testimony to herself not God

[Jael]

Thus, we have sandyeggo's original comment, on this thread:

"I remember you from when you first came on the forum, trying to get everyone to talk to the witches on your other forum. That really creeped me out, and so I have recognized your name from then on."

Nothing in that comment she made is true, yet you parrot it as if it were the Gospel.

She selectively left out the posts that plainly showed the truth. And you know it.

It wasn't "my forum." It was a religious foum I posted at long before any witches showed up.

I told scoffers that if they didn't believe me, they could ask a witch. People on that thread were saying they were not real.

No one was "creeped" out.

If anyone should be creeped out, it is everyone on this thread, thinking that a woman claiming to be a "Catholic" Christian would actually try and frame someone and lie about what they said and why.

It should creep you out that the same woman worships Mary and prays to dead people.

That is the creep out.

[RnMomof7]

You need to READ it the scripture says that when He RETURNS we will see him and be like he is and we sahll THEN be as he is

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

That is at the 2nd coming...and it speaks to the glorified body...NOT the attributes of God the father..

[Cap'n Crunch]

Mom, I'm disappointed. You sound kind of bitter.

I don't know about other catholics, but I don't assume anything about the salvation of anybody's soul. Mine included.

How can you say you think Scott Hahn was not "saved?" Here's a guy who's whole life goal was to be a protestant minister, who studied scripture from his youth and despised the catholic church. The catholic church was the LAST place he wanted to be. But the Holy Spirit apparently had other plans. It was his love of scripture and Jesus Christ that led him to the Church.

A rich egomaniac? Trophy of the catholic church???

Mom, I expected more from you than that.

[Jael]

She is not a perfect human guide. She guides no one to Jesus Christ.

Luke 8:19  Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.

20  And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.

21  And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

[Cap'n Crunch]

So, by post 241, I guess your not going to read the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Too bad, I think you'd really enjoy it. The Tilma really is fantastic, been subjected to many scientific studies. A miraculous gift from God.

[Cap'n Crunch]

"Woman, there is you son." In turn he said to the disciple "There is your mother."

I'm no theologian but I believe every "Beloved Disciple" has Mary for his Mother.

[Jael]

He never gave you a mother in Mary. Why would you even say that?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The Creed says that the Word became incarnate from the Virgin Mary.

That settles it.

[Jael]

The stain remains.

You may not take it seriously, but I take it very seriously. And you can stop claiming that the Catholics avoid the occult. The same people who lied about me support Harry Potter.

[Cap'n Crunch]

What do you mean? I gave you chapter and verse.

[RobbyS]

And what does he say? Simply That the claims of one's natural family--and in the middle eastern world they are
and always have been FAR stronger than in our Anglo-Saxon world--are not as important as the claims of our
brotherhood, the Church. But you avoid the real point, which is that we do not, as you claim, make Mary a
goddess. As to the Bible, the first two chapters of Luke might be headed" Mary," because they clearly show what
her place is in creation: the mother of My Lord. We single her out as the first among us simply because God has.
Who is Abraham or Moses compared with this humble maiden?

[RobbyS]

In my mind it does. You and the Latter Day Saints can fight it out if you like, but don't saddle me with that dispute. I have no dog in that hunt.

[RnMomof7]

There are many LOST ministers out there Cap..Knowlege gained at a seminary does not save you..that would be a salvation by works...there are street people that are saved and high ranking church officals that are not..God is not a respecter of persons..

I actually find it a bit funny that the RC's here drag him out as if he will convert us..the elect will not be deceived by him... the fact he was once a protestant is worth cash and fame.. our churches full of former Rc's actually have about as much import

[RnMomof7]

So, by post 241, I guess your not going to read the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Cap I read it as a kid..I still love the painting...it is a beautiful work of art...but cap ..even the holy Spirit does not speak of himself...He points to Jesus

[RobbyS]

And did I say anything about the attributes of the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit--the Triune God. No, I said Jesus, Our Lord and Brother.

[Jael]

But your actions, to a devout Catholic, are creepy.

My actions, in saying that witchcraft is real and something evil is creepy to you?
You people pray to dead people!!! You have beads to pray with just like the heathen! The list goes on and on, of the creep factor with your belief.
And yet you claim that my saying witchcraft is real and evil is creepy?

Just as you seem to take these matters seriously, so do we Catholics.

You don't take it seriously. You just said that your child reads the Lord of the Rings. Listen to me, THERE ARE NO GOOD WITCHES!!! Do you understand that????

So much so that we would avoid conversing with acknowledged occultists about occult matters. We would not suggest to folks to go converse with these so that they could see firsthand what's going on.

My comments were not made with that intention. My comments were made to scoffers who said witches are not real. Read that over again ever so slowly so that you understand it.

And since you do involve yourself in the occult, along with your children, I would take your statement to not be true, that "it creeps you out." Obviously it does not, as evidenced by your participation in it's reading materials.

Harry Potter. Mediocre fiction. Perused the first book to see if it was appropriate for my children. Didn't make the grade. Haven't seen the movies, either.

Why would you even think a book about a witch is good:????

I don't deplore the extranormal stuff in literature. Not in Tolkien or Lewis. My elder son has read the Lord of the Rings, much of the Silmarillion, the Chronicles of Narnia, etc. The appearance of magic and witches, etc., is not offensive in these works.

THERE ARE NO GOOD WITCHES.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Learning to be a minister at a college is works?

Do you go to a church? I think you must because you say "our church's." Is going to church a work?

Do you think all catholics are lost?

[sitetest]

Dear Jael,

"Nothing in that comment she made is true, yet you parrot it as if it were the Gospel.

"She selectively left out the posts that plainly showed the truth. And you know it."

Well, regrettably, I've skimmed through the thread in question. Your behavior was markedly worse than sandyeggo made it out to be.

She certainly did leave out many of your posts. But I went back and did a little checking. From about 10:50 pm, EST to about 12:45 am, EST, you made about 40 - 45 posts (my count is 43, but I didn't make an extremely careful count).

In about 24 of those posts, you encouraged others to go converse with witches on-line. That's over 50%, nearly 60%. That's really creepy, Jael. Really, really creepy.

"No one was 'creeped' out."

Au contraire. The individual to whom you repeatedly posted, HairOfTheDog, appeared very uncomfortable with your seeming fascination with the witches' site. HiTechRedNeck specifically warned you not to encourage people to go directly interact with occultists. A couple of other posters also warned you off. I think that HiTechRedNeck actually posted the Lord's Prayer toward the end of your participation.

But that wouldn't really matter. Sandyeggo reports that it creeped SANDYEGGO out, not anyone else. How could you say that sandyeggo's observation of sandyeggo's own state of mind is untrue? LOL.

As to the quibble of "my forum" or another's, frankly, you infer too much from what sandyeggo posted. And you miss the implications of your own posts, which repeatedly promoted these occultist websites (sorry, Jael, when you tell people 24 out of 43 times to go to a series of websites, that becomes promotion of those websited).

"People on that thread were saying they were not real."

Several posters were agreeing that these things are real, and were WARNING YOU to stop encouraging others to go to chat with occultists.

Ironically, sandyeggo's problem with your posts is that as a Catholics, she AGREES that such phenomena are real, doesn't disagree a wit with you on that, but knows well enough that these are not individuals with whom one ought to converse about these subjects, merely to satisfy curiousity.

"If anyone should be creeped out, it is everyone on this thread, thinking that a woman claiming to be a 'Catholic' Christian would actually try and frame someone and lie about what they said and why."

The problem here, Jael, is that you are unable to face up to your own actions, and the consequences thereof.

"It should creep you out that the same woman worships Mary and prays to dead people."

I would be creeped out if she worshiped Mary, or did other than to ask the LIVING SAINTS in Heaven to pray for her. But Jael, I will remember you in my Rosary tomorrow.

;-)


sitetest

[Invincibly Ignorant]

In my mind it does. You and the Latter Day Saints can fight it out if you like, but don't saddle me with that dispute. I have no dog in that hunt.

Guilt by association. I've grown accustomed to your tactic. Yes you do have a dog in that hunt. Its called the Greco-Roman hellenization and corruption of the Biblical Resurrection of the dead.