Posted on 11/29/2002 5:00:21 PM PST by Loyalist
What do you mean WILL be excommunicated?
<> Try again, Ace<>
I am not an "SSPXer". I am a traditional Catholic. It just happens that the SSPX provides the Mass and Sacraments in a consistently traditional way while still recognizing that the Seat of St. Peter is occupied. Therefore I assist at Mass in an SSPX chapel where I live.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were the Lord God Almighty.
Prove that it is gravely sinful to assist at a Traditional Mass held in an SSPX chapel. Not even Rome contends this. But I guess you know better than they do, oh holy one...
I'll check out the book Colleen. Thanks for the recommendation. But I have to tell you I'm less optimistic.
It's nice hearing from people in good orthodox parishes. But my own experience has been worse. I have belonged to 6 different parishes in my adult life. Each one has been more "progressive" than the next. Though more conservative in general outlook than the previous generation, I'm not seeing much orthodoxy among younger Catholics. I'm seeing simple abandonment of the Faith. I'm not sure this is even intentional on their part. They may be rejecting out of ignorance rather than intent.
Here's a related anecdote: When I sponsored by wife through RCIA classes, I had to sit through so much heterodox nonsense I couldn't believe it. In fact, if I heard someone else telling about all the things being taught in the classes I sat through I'd think I was hearing quite a bit of exagerration. Statements about how the Catholic Church wasn't too different than Protestant churches, a priest instructing the class that confession was no longer required by the Church, a student being reprimanded for suggesting the class learn to pray the rosary. On every issue where someone asked for clarification about the Catholic Church versus a Protestant position, the class instructor (either the religious education instructor or the assisting priest) refused to clearly state a difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. I always spent one or two hours after the class blowing off steam and correcting all the errors taught to my wife with the help of a Catechism (a book never even mentioned in the RCIA classes). My wife's constant criticism was that she had already been a Protestant, and if that's all the Catholic Church was offering, why should she bother to convert?
Incidentally, the woman in charge of the RCIA program was also in charge of Religious education of all the children in the parish - both the school and CCD classes. This occurred at one of the largest parishes in my archdiocese. We selected it after moving there because it was actually more orthodox then several others we visited.
This experience made me think we may have a larger problem than we realize. Regardless of orthodox intentions in the next generation, how will true orthodoxy return to a Church when Catholic children and converts are never taught about it in the first place? How many young Catholics are even truly Catholic, in the sense that they accept the teachings of the Church as explained in the Catechism - a book many of them have never even seen? How many reject the Faith without even realizing it, encouraged in their dissension by heterodox religious educators?
There may be entire dioceses, perhaps even entire countries, who are not being instructed in the Catholic faith. A resurgence of orthodoxy may not be enough to correct the problem. Someday soon, in places currently thought to be within the Church, we may literally need missionaries to re-establish the Faith.
It may be helpful if you were to once again tell us the peculiar circumstances that led to the reversal of the excommunication of the Hawaii laypeople.
Why don't we ask Cardinal Ratzinger himself:
Background on the case: [Mrs. Morley and five other Traditional Catholics in the Diocese of Honolulu, known as "The Honolulu Six," were "excommunicated" by the Bishop of Honolulu on the grounds that they:
* established a traditional chapel in the diocese
* impugned the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness of the New Mass for four years on a religious radio program
* invited independent and SSPX priests to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass at the chapel
* invited an SSPX bishop to administer the Sacrament of Confirmation at the chapel
* disobeyed the bishop
Even in the face of all these acts on the part of The Honolulu Six, the Vatican decreed that the six did not commit the crime of "schism" and declared that the bishop's action in "excommunicating" them was null and void. Subsequently, the bishop was removed from office by the Vatican on a morals charge.
In clear violation of the Vatican's decree, the Bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska, later threatened with "excommunication" any Catholics in his diocese attending the Traditional Latin Mass at independent and SSPX chapels. Although the threat was given much publicity, the bishop in the end backed down when his bluff was called and declined to take any such illegal action.]
DECREE OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITHSo here we have even Cardinal Ratzinger affirming that assisting at a Mass conducted in an SSPX chapel is NOT a schismatic act. What will all those here who only know how to scream "schism" say to the Cardinal? That he is schismatic as well?
(THE "HONOLULU" DECISION)
On July 3, 1991, Mrs. Patricia Morley had recourse to this Congregation against the Decree of the Bishop of Honolulu issued on May 1, 1991.
His Excellency, the Most Reverend Joseph Anthony Ferrario, with aforesaid Decree declared Mrs. Morely excommunicated on the grounds that she had committed the crime of schism and thus had incurred the "latae sententiae" penalty as provided for in canon 1364.1 of the Code of Canon Law [1983].
This Congregation has examined carefully all the available documentation and has ascertained that the activities engaged in by the Petitioner, though blameworthy on various accounts, are not sufficient to constitute the crime of schism.
Since Mrs. Morley did not, in fact, commit the crime of schism and thus did not incur the "latae sententiae" penalty, it is clear that the Decree of the Bishop lacks the precondition on which it is founded.
This Congregation, noting all of the above, is obliged to declare null and void the aforesaid Decree of the Ordinary of Honolulu.
Joseph Card. Ratzinger, Prefect
Alberto Bovone, Secretary
Vatican City, June 4, 1993
Very, very true. My sympathies on your RCIA experience. I have a convert friend who started with the RCIA program in a NYC parish and had to flee in horror after they had to conclude their sessions - under the "guidance" of a 50-ish nun - by staring into a candle flame.
Needless to say, the things that Sister taught in the few classes my friend attended bore no relationship to Catholicism. BTW, attendance dropped on a weekly basis. Other members of the class also knew much more about the Church than Sister Snowflake, and they couldn't tolerate the hogwash they were getting.
My friend finally found a priest who instructed her and received her privately (how he got away with it, I don't know), so she's in now! Of course, what she's faced with as an actual Catholic is just as depressing, alas...
Amazing! Thank you for sharing this with us here. No wonder Catholics have just stopped going to Mass since this gang of revolutionaries took over. The only thing they have left is fear: to terrify the faithful that if they dare to seek out traditional Catholicism they will be excommunicated and sent to hell for eternity. This is all they have left: fear. And you see it here on this thread over and over. Try to terrify the bewildered masses and keep them in these protestantized churches by force. It is immoral and against the timeless Catholic faith. I do not doubt that the authors of this deception will pay.
How many young Catholics are even truly Catholic, in the sense that they accept the teachings of the Church as explained in the Catechism - a book many of them have never even seen?
As much as people here will attack and belittle the idea, I can say without hesitation that these truly Catholic principles are continually coming more and more alive in the chapels of the Society of Saint Pius X and in independent Roman Catholic chapels across this country and across the world. You want to see where the non-watered down Catholic faith is thriving and spreading? You want to see where children at the earliest age know exponentially more about the Faith than folks like me, who found the traditional Mass after years in the wilderness? These kids are amazing. They love God, they love their Catholic Faith, and they live their Catholic faith. It is the most heartening thing. This is the remnant that will restore the Faith when these terrible times have passed. Even just thinking about it makes me very optimistic...
Based on the letter to the Australian (?) posted above from the Vatican congregation, I think your conclusion is unwarranted.
The Vatican WARNS that regular attendance at schismatic Masses is 'harmful to your health,' but did not seem to impose penalty of sin.
Says who? You? Rome and the pope disagree. You are challenging the pope on this?
Why do you lie? Priests of the SSPX are not excommunicated. NOT EXCOMMUNICATED. Get it?
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