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To: american colleen
But, look around at your N.O. Mass. The Our Father hand holders and arm extenders are old... just like those militant nuns and *some* priests... Then read that book "The New Orthodox" by COlleen Carroll.... I think things will be much better for the next generation. Much more stability.

I'll check out the book Colleen. Thanks for the recommendation. But I have to tell you I'm less optimistic.

It's nice hearing from people in good orthodox parishes. But my own experience has been worse. I have belonged to 6 different parishes in my adult life. Each one has been more "progressive" than the next. Though more conservative in general outlook than the previous generation, I'm not seeing much orthodoxy among younger Catholics. I'm seeing simple abandonment of the Faith. I'm not sure this is even intentional on their part. They may be rejecting out of ignorance rather than intent.

Here's a related anecdote: When I sponsored by wife through RCIA classes, I had to sit through so much heterodox nonsense I couldn't believe it. In fact, if I heard someone else telling about all the things being taught in the classes I sat through I'd think I was hearing quite a bit of exagerration. Statements about how the Catholic Church wasn't too different than Protestant churches, a priest instructing the class that confession was no longer required by the Church, a student being reprimanded for suggesting the class learn to pray the rosary. On every issue where someone asked for clarification about the Catholic Church versus a Protestant position, the class instructor (either the religious education instructor or the assisting priest) refused to clearly state a difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. I always spent one or two hours after the class blowing off steam and correcting all the errors taught to my wife with the help of a Catechism (a book never even mentioned in the RCIA classes). My wife's constant criticism was that she had already been a Protestant, and if that's all the Catholic Church was offering, why should she bother to convert?

Incidentally, the woman in charge of the RCIA program was also in charge of Religious education of all the children in the parish - both the school and CCD classes. This occurred at one of the largest parishes in my archdiocese. We selected it after moving there because it was actually more orthodox then several others we visited.

This experience made me think we may have a larger problem than we realize. Regardless of orthodox intentions in the next generation, how will true orthodoxy return to a Church when Catholic children and converts are never taught about it in the first place? How many young Catholics are even truly Catholic, in the sense that they accept the teachings of the Church as explained in the Catechism - a book many of them have never even seen? How many reject the Faith without even realizing it, encouraged in their dissension by heterodox religious educators?

There may be entire dioceses, perhaps even entire countries, who are not being instructed in the Catholic faith. A resurgence of orthodoxy may not be enough to correct the problem. Someday soon, in places currently thought to be within the Church, we may literally need missionaries to re-establish the Faith.

408 posted on 12/03/2002 7:46:58 AM PST by Snuffington
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To: Snuffington
Someday soon, in places currently thought to be within the Church, we may literally need missionaries to re-establish the Faith.

Very, very true. My sympathies on your RCIA experience. I have a convert friend who started with the RCIA program in a NYC parish and had to flee in horror after they had to conclude their sessions - under the "guidance" of a 50-ish nun - by staring into a candle flame.

Needless to say, the things that Sister taught in the few classes my friend attended bore no relationship to Catholicism. BTW, attendance dropped on a weekly basis. Other members of the class also knew much more about the Church than Sister Snowflake, and they couldn't tolerate the hogwash they were getting.

My friend finally found a priest who instructed her and received her privately (how he got away with it, I don't know), so she's in now! Of course, what she's faced with as an actual Catholic is just as depressing, alas...

410 posted on 12/03/2002 7:58:00 AM PST by livius
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To: Snuffington; american colleen
Regardless of orthodox intentions in the next generation, how will true orthodoxy return to a Church when Catholic children and converts are never taught about it in the first place?

Very true. It's a struggle sometimes to know what to do or say without a Catechism handy. I wish they'd teach it in adult education. But, appearantly [in your laziest voice] "It's tooo hhaaarrrrdddd." That makes me so mad.

BTW, for great explainations on a lot of stuff old Missals are a marvelous resource. I started collecting them and over the weekend I found a 1934 imprint in an antique mall. Lots of stuff I didn't know in there, like how Mass got the name Mass.
411 posted on 12/03/2002 7:59:21 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: Snuffington
When I sponsored by wife through RCIA classes, I had to sit through so much heterodox nonsense I couldn't believe it...Statements about how the Catholic Church wasn't too different than Protestant churches, a priest instructing the class that confession was no longer required by the Church, a student being reprimanded for suggesting the class learn to pray the rosary. On every issue where someone asked for clarification about the Catholic Church versus a Protestant position, the class instructor (either the religious education instructor or the assisting priest) refused to clearly state a difference between Catholicism and Protestantism...My wife's constant criticism was that she had already been a Protestant, and if that's all the Catholic Church was offering, why should she bother to convert?

Amazing! Thank you for sharing this with us here. No wonder Catholics have just stopped going to Mass since this gang of revolutionaries took over. The only thing they have left is fear: to terrify the faithful that if they dare to seek out traditional Catholicism they will be excommunicated and sent to hell for eternity. This is all they have left: fear. And you see it here on this thread over and over. Try to terrify the bewildered masses and keep them in these protestantized churches by force. It is immoral and against the timeless Catholic faith. I do not doubt that the authors of this deception will pay.

How many young Catholics are even truly Catholic, in the sense that they accept the teachings of the Church as explained in the Catechism - a book many of them have never even seen?

As much as people here will attack and belittle the idea, I can say without hesitation that these truly Catholic principles are continually coming more and more alive in the chapels of the Society of Saint Pius X and in independent Roman Catholic chapels across this country and across the world. You want to see where the non-watered down Catholic faith is thriving and spreading? You want to see where children at the earliest age know exponentially more about the Faith than folks like me, who found the traditional Mass after years in the wilderness? These kids are amazing. They love God, they love their Catholic Faith, and they live their Catholic faith. It is the most heartening thing. This is the remnant that will restore the Faith when these terrible times have passed. Even just thinking about it makes me very optimistic...

412 posted on 12/03/2002 8:05:29 AM PST by Zviadist
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To: Snuffington
Well, you ask a good question: how will anyone KNOW what they don't KNOW?

History serves. There were LOTS of Catholics who could not read, nor write. They were good with memory, but not necessarily given 'the Baltimore catechism.'

They did OK.
414 posted on 12/03/2002 8:21:36 AM PST by ninenot
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