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Principles of Literal Bible Interpretation
Bible Truth ^ | Revised, Aug 2001 | Cooper P. Abrams, III

Posted on 10/29/2002 5:18:29 AM PST by xzins



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: actual; allegorical; bible; figurative; interpretation; literal; real; symbolic
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To: RnMomof7
I'm talking about the sequence of the chapter. Which piece goes where in the sequence.
461 posted on 11/02/2002 1:24:17 PM PST by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
False isn't necessarily "anti."
462 posted on 11/02/2002 1:27:05 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
anti = in behalf of instead of


http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon
463 posted on 11/02/2002 1:43:13 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
If I recall correctly, Moon has made claims to being the "returned christ." In other words, he is a false christ.

Does that make him the anti-christ?

False does not necessarily = anti.
464 posted on 11/03/2002 2:59:11 AM PST by xzins
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To: xzins; RnMomof7; jude24; nobdysfool; theAmbassador; CCWoody; the_doc; Matchett-PI
"His displeasure was not with the what he had done but was rather with the manner in which the people turned it into an insincere, hypocritical system of "going through the motions" to make a big show."

Well, I must say, you're true to form. The passages makes no mention that God dislikes the manner in which the people preformed the sacrifice. You simply dismiss the clear/literal words of the passage and insert your own ideas and meanings -how quaint!

"As far as your interpretation of Is 65, I simply don't buy your "tree" thing. It doesn't say what you are stretching it to say."

The 'tree' thing is not mine. I have not ever made any comment on it. (Do you wonder why I continue to suggest that you take reading comprehension classes!?!)

"It says they'll live a long time (like a tree); it doesn't say they'll live forever. "

Who are they that will not live forever???? God's people by chance???? So, in other words, you are saying that during this "millennial kingdom" (which magically appears out of no where in this text), God's people do not live forever????

"It's natural for me to assign it to the millennium rather than to the New Heavens and New Earth since we're clearly told in Revelation that there is no death there. "

Well of course it's natural for you to assign it to the millennial kingdom. Since when have you shown any regard whatsoever for what the infallible Word of God literally says?!?

The fact remains that Isaiah 65 has declared explicitly and specifically that this is a description, not of a millennial kingdom of which you simply declare by fiat to be in the text, but only and rightly of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

"No shame in that."

Adding words and concepts to what the infallible Word of God literally says most certainly is shameful!

You have no right to insert your millennial kingdom into this passage. You do have the obligation to submit your preconcieved understandings to the clear teachings and declarations of what the infallible Word of God literally says!

Jean

465 posted on 11/03/2002 11:05:27 AM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: xzins
I've never heard of these 'futurist' amil or 'preterist' amil camps.

Do you care to back up your assertion??

In otherwords, the only amil 'camp' I know of is the historist. I would be in that 'camp'.

Jean

466 posted on 11/03/2002 11:08:24 AM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
""Who will populate the millennium in natural bodies?" "

Of course, this is not an answer to the question I asked.

I did not ask "who will populate the millennium in natural bodies".

I asked you who the ~countless~ number of persons in Rev 7 were?

Jean

467 posted on 11/03/2002 11:10:50 AM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: xzins; RnMomof7; theAmbassador
"When is the "great tribulation?""

Since Christ told us that tribulation and persecution would always follow the church and since Rev 7 describes those coming out of the Great Tribulation as being 'countless' and as being from believers from ~every~ tribe, tounge, language and people (apparently including Jews), I must conclude that the Great Tribulation is from the time of Christ's resurrection until his return.

Jean

468 posted on 11/03/2002 11:14:33 AM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: Jean Chauvin; drstevej
I'll see if I can track it down. Like I said, I'm going by memory from a while back. I'll check with some amill friends and seminary friends and see if they remember.

On the surface, though, it strikes me as reasonable. Some see the bulk of prophecy fulfilled early in church history, early in the millennial reign of Christ. Some see the bulk at the end of that period that you call the millennium. Some see an unfolding throughout the millennium.

Since the length is indeterminate, it would make sense that if the Lord doesn't return for another 50 or 60 thousand years, say, that the bulk would be either earlier or later in the "symbolic" 1000 years.
469 posted on 11/03/2002 3:32:17 PM PST by xzins
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To: Jean Chauvin; the_doc; Jerry_M; RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; theAmbassador; xzins; ksen; ...
Well, my connection has been up and down now for about 2 weeks. It has just come up today after my phones were completely out. It seems as if the "f2" connection was bad, if I understand it right. Here's hoping that my connection will stay up.

Of course, as luck would have it, I have a customer who has told me I will have a big chip set to design reticles for sent this week and I have the last week of kid soccer to go with the start of my next season. I've move up from co-ed now that my back is stronger and I'm not worried that my broken bone will be a problem. We have a team with good talent, but we don't know how to play together so we were clobbered last week in our first game.


When he comes again, we will need no memorial -Lord's Supper ~OR~ Animal Sacrifice- for we will forever be in his presense! ~ Jean Chauvin

You know Jean, for you and I and doc and all us Amillennialists who have posted, such an idea that we will retun to animal sacrifices in some kind of wierd form of animalistic worship when the King himself will be with us is rather wierd. But it does occur to me that the reason so many people believe such things is that they really don't have an understanding of exactly what true worship is all about because they haven't ever really experienced it.

It really doesn't make any sense that we would want to go out and disembowl "Lamb Chop" when we have direct access to the Lamb like Lion.

470 posted on 11/03/2002 5:06:47 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: xzins
anti = in behalf of instead of

If I recall correctly, Moon has made claims to being the "returned christ." In other words, he is a false christ. Does that make him the anti-christ?

It makes him AN anti Christ

471 posted on 11/03/2002 5:50:09 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
An anti-christ.

So, then, if he is "an" anti-christ, who is THE anti-christ? Is he yet to come? Or has he already come?
472 posted on 11/03/2002 7:49:59 PM PST by xzins
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To: Jean Chauvin; RnMomof7; the_doc; OrthodoxPresbyterian; drstevej; theAmbassador; xzins; ksen

Since Christ told us that tribulation and persecution would always follow the church and since Rev 7 describes those coming out of the Great Tribulation as being 'countless' and as being from believers from ~every~ tribe, tongue, language and people (apparently including Jews), I must conclude that the Great Tribulation is from the time of Christ's resurrection until his return. ~ Jean Chauvin

You know, sister, I have come to believe that we are now in the "1000 year reign of Christ" for reasons of which you have been made irritatingly aware ;-), but I have been becoming increasingly convinced that this is also "the great tribulation". I do notice that the KJV does not render this as THE great tribulation, but simply great tribulation.

Am I to understand that the events described here are not great tribulations:

It does seem, then, if we are to "wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb" then we need to suffer in the flesh. Jesus Himself learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And we have the mind of Christ. But, then that means that we need to arm ourselves with the purpose to suffer.

473 posted on 11/03/2002 8:05:14 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
When did the tribulation begin? When does it end?

474 posted on 11/03/2002 8:08:32 PM PST by xzins
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To: CCWoody; xzins
Jer 30:7-9 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Does this describe the tribulation?

475 posted on 11/03/2002 8:12:54 PM PST by drstevej
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To: CCWoody; Jean Chauvin; RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Matchett-PI
I would offer the comment that many amills think that there will be an unusually bad period of tribulation concluding our millennial period.

Don't ask me to defend their position. (I try not to argue for something I can't really prove, even if I suspect that it is correct.)

476 posted on 11/03/2002 8:25:26 PM PST by the_doc
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To: xzins; drstevej; RnMomof7; Jean Chauvin; Matchett-PI; the_doc

When did the tribulation begin? When does it end? ~ xzins

Well, I'd say that the tribulations began the moment that sin entered this world. I'd say that the tribulations will end the moment that this world ends.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that things are going to get real bad before the return of the King. I just don't expect that I will get a free pass to escape tribulations because I happen to know God. Why should I expect special treatment when for the first 3 centuries after the Lord's murder the gospel spread over ground wet with the blood of the saints? Personally, I don't think we will complete preaching to the elect in every tribe and tongue until the ground is again wet with the blood of the saints. Some even say that it is happening right now.

477 posted on 11/03/2002 8:47:38 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: the_doc; RnMomof7; CCWoody; theAmbassador; Matchett-PI; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I would agree, but this has more to do with the comparison of tribulation to 'birth pangs' than it does to a reference in Matt to 'great tribulation' (notice, not "~THE~ ~G~reat ~T~ribulation").

Birth Pangs generally come and go, but get worse every time.

Perhaps RnMOMof7 can confirm that be the case.

But historically, reformed theology has defined THE Great Tribulation spoken of in Rev 7 as the whole of the Church age from Christ's resurrection until his return.

Jean

478 posted on 11/03/2002 8:50:40 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: drstevej
To be quite honest, I don't know exactly what those verses describe. Were I a "literalists" I'd say that it is only describing Israel and Judah.
479 posted on 11/03/2002 8:51:59 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody; RnMomof7
"". I do notice that the KJV does not render this as THE great tribulation, but simply great tribulation."

While there is no article "the" present in the Greek rendering of Matthew 24:21, it ~IS~ present in the Greek rendering of Rev 7:14. (i.e. Rev 7:14 is ~not~ referencing specifically Matt 24:21).

Jean

480 posted on 11/03/2002 9:02:47 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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