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Principles of Literal Bible Interpretation
Bible Truth ^ | Revised, Aug 2001 | Cooper P. Abrams, III

Posted on 10/29/2002 5:18:29 AM PST by xzins



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: actual; allegorical; bible; figurative; interpretation; literal; real; symbolic
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To: xzins; RnMomof7; ksen; jude24; theAmbassador; the_doc; Matchett-PI; CCWoody; Wrigley
"'animal butchering...'

What I said earlier to Ambassador -- Why would you make fun of the sacrificial system that God instituted?"

You seem not to get my point!

Is animal sacrifice ~NOT~ animal butchering????

My point is to portray the sacrifice for what it is -a ritual centered around the death and destruction of an animal. It ~IS~ animal butchering. The term butchering is not mocking in any way, but is an explicit description of the system of which you took offense. That should tell you something.

I simply wanted to stress that in the time of this 'millennial kingdom' there will be a reversion to an O.T. practice centering on a need to shed blood for sin as if Christ's sacrifice had not yet happenned.

How can repeated animal sacrifice be a memorial for the "once for all" sacrifice of Jesus Christ that did away with the O.T. Sacrifices???

Psalm 40
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Micah 6
6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Hebrews 10
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the secondbr> 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You demand a return to a system which, yes, was ordained by God, but which the Scriptures, straight up, tell us the Lord was never pleased with anyway!

But then again, Isaiah 65 has already told us, straight up, that it is a description, not of a 'millennial kingdom', but of the New Heavens and the New Earth. Yet, you require and insist on inserting your 'millenial kingdom' into this passage anyway! It literally tells us that this is a description of the New Heavens and the New Earth! You ought to be ashamed of yourself!

We serve a ~RISEN~ savior and we fully expect a perfect world where there will be no death. Even in your bastardized interpretation of Isaiah 65 as the 'millennial kingdom' you would have a description of the lamb lying down with the wolf without fearing death! Your 'millennial kingdom' would have the lion becoming a vegetarian never to feast on animal meat again. Yet you demand the butchering of animals in this 'millennial kingdom' in order to satisfy your own presumptions of an inconsistantly and conveniently used 'literal hermeneutic'.

Jean

441 posted on 11/01/2002 7:05:22 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: xzins; Corin Stormhands; RnMomof7; jude24; ksen; theAmbassador; the_doc; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; ...
"What do you mean by being technically "post-trib?""

Since we believe that the millennial kingdom begins at the Resurrection of Christ:

Acts 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

According to the infallible Word of God, the Bible tells us ~LITERALLY~ that at the Resurrection, Jesus became the ~JEWISH~ Messiah sitting on David's throne! (Just because it is a spiritual reality does ~NOT~ mean that it is not literally true!)

Since Jesus returns at the end of the age, this obviously is the end of the "millennial kingdom" and thus, Jesus returns ~AFTER~ the Great Tribulation!

Furthermore, we are told in Revelation 7 that an innumerable and uncountable throng from ~ALL~ nations (apparently including Jews) has come out of the Great Tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb!

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of the ~great tribulation~, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Note to pre-tribbers: Just who are these guys??? The 'church' takes 2000 years (and counting) to amass its members, yet this group described here as which "no man could number" takes a mere 3 1/2 to 7 years to assemble????

Of course, I must note that, in amillennial theology, this is literally all believers from all time -from the time of Adam until the time of Christ's second coming!

Jean

442 posted on 11/01/2002 7:27:21 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: nate4one
ping to 442

John 15:18
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

John 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The time of tribulation is from Christ's resurrection to the second coming.

The Great Tribulation is the ~whole~ age from the Resurrection unto the second coming!

"And I see you follow Doc. Refusing to answer SCRIPTURAL challenges to your interpretations concerning a physical resurrection. "

Not intentional. My isp is down (I'm elswhere at present without time to go back to day-old conversation).

Jean

443 posted on 11/01/2002 7:33:17 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: nate4one
"The Great Tribulation is the ~whole~ age from the [time of Christ's] Resurrection unto the second coming!"

For clarification.

Jean

444 posted on 11/01/2002 7:35:13 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: Jean Chauvin
Thanks (processing...processing...)
445 posted on 11/01/2002 7:53:42 PM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: Jean Chauvin; fortheDeclaration; RochesterFan
! It literally tells us that this is a description of the New Heavens and the New Earth! You ought to be ashamed of yourself!

Well, I'll simply repeat the God instituted the system as a preview of Christ's sacrifice. His displeasure was not with the what he had done but was rather with the manner in which the people turned it into an insincere, hypocritical system of "going through the motions" to make a big show.

As far as your interpretation of Is 65, I simply don't buy your "tree" thing. It doesn't say what you are stretching it to say. It says they'll live a long time (like a tree); it doesn't say they'll live forever.

It's natural for me to assign it to the millennium rather than to the New Heavens and New Earth since we're clearly told in Revelation that there is no death there.

No shame in that.

446 posted on 11/01/2002 9:05:31 PM PST by xzins
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To: Jean Chauvin
Since Jesus returns at the end of the age, this obviously is the end of the "millennial kingdom" and thus, Jesus returns ~AFTER~ the Great Tribulation!

OK, I get it.

Are you saying that somewhere between his departure and his return that a tribulation occurs and that, therefore, it is necessarily post-trib?

When is the "great tribulation?"

447 posted on 11/01/2002 9:14:18 PM PST by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Which tribulation is that?

448 posted on 11/01/2002 9:18:56 PM PST by xzins
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To: Jean Chauvin
Historicist, futurist, and preterist.....(define the terms.)

Jean, I'm going from memory so you might have to adjust these. I'm not an amill so I don't keep track of their different camps.

Historicist amill = The Revelation covers 2000 years of history (at this point). It is the progressing prophecy that covers the whole period from Jesus' departure to his return.

Futurist amill = The Revelation is future (as well as many other prophecies). It will transpire some day.

Preterist amill = The great bulk of prophecy happened prior to the end of the 1st century of the church with SOME things yet to occur. (You'll have to fill us in on which ones are yet to occur and which are already fulfilled. I think they do see a direct fulfillment of the antichrist with Nero and the Pope, but don't ask me how it can be both.)

So, those are the camps. Which is/are yours? And why?

449 posted on 11/01/2002 9:27:38 PM PST by xzins
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To: Jean Chauvin; RnMomof7; Wrigley; winstonchurchill; Frumanchu; jude24; fortheDeclaration; ...
Historicist, futurist, and preterist.....(define the terms.)

Jean, I'm going from memory so you might have to modify each of these amill definitions. I'm not an amill so I don't keep track of their different camps. But these are the 3 different amill camps I remember AND I'm curious which you fall into??

Historicist amill = The Revelation covers 2000 years of history (at this point). It is the progressing prophecy that covers the whole period from Jesus' departure to his return.

Futurist amill = The Revelation is future (as well as many other prophecies). It will transpire some day.

Preterist amill = The great bulk of prophecy happened prior to the end of the 1st century of the church with SOME things yet to occur. (You'll have to fill us in on which ones are yet to occur and which are already fulfilled. I think they do see a direct fulfillment of the antichrist with Nero and the Pope, but don't ask me how it can be both.)

So, those are the camps. Which is/are yours? And why?

450 posted on 11/01/2002 9:32:02 PM PST by xzins
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To: computerjunkie
I tend in the post-trib direction; but I definitely see the wisdom of the "pre-trib."

451 posted on 11/01/2002 9:40:31 PM PST by xzins
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To: Jean Chauvin; xzins; Corin Stormhands; RnMomof7; jude24; ksen
Note to pre-tribbers: Just who are these guys??? The 'church' takes 2000 years (and counting) to amass its members, yet this group described here as which "no man could number" takes a mere 3 1/2 to 7 years to assemble????

"Who will populate the millennium in natural bodies?" It cannot be the church because it will be raptured and gain new bodies. It cannot be unbelievers because they will all be destroyed when Christ returns to earth. We cannot make an exception for Israel, because any Israelite, just like any Gentile, must be saved before Christ returns to earth or else they will be destroyed with the rest of the unbelievers. Who will enter the millennium with natural bodies? Only one answer remains. It has to be tribulation saints. Tribulation saints are saved during the tribulation after the rapture. You think no one will not notice what is going on at this peroid of time? A great multitude of folks that were playing church will have their eyes WIDE OPEN during the Tribulation and turn and be saved. Since they miss the rapture they remain in their natural bodies to enter the millennium.

BigMack

452 posted on 11/01/2002 10:24:30 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: xzins
So, those are the camps. Which is/are yours? And why?

Depends what day of the week it is.

453 posted on 11/02/2002 12:02:06 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Jean Chauvin; xzins; Corin Stormhands; jude24
In this world you will have TRIBULATION..BUT be of Good cheer "I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD".........Hey Jean I GOT IT!!

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

AWESOME! LIGHT ON !!

454 posted on 11/02/2002 8:07:44 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
But when is the "great tribulation?"
455 posted on 11/02/2002 9:03:04 AM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
I suspect we will know the end of the age when it comes:>)Do you think the Jews and the Christians that died thought the "great tribulation "was in Germany in the 40's?

 
  Mar 13:19   For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


  
  Mar 13:20   And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
  
  Mar 13:21   And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:
  
  Mar 13:22   For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
  
  Mar 13:23   But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
  
  Mar 13:24   But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
  
  Mar 13:25   And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
  
  Mar 13:26   And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
456 posted on 11/02/2002 9:28:02 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:

Does this refer to the earlier mention of "false Christs?"

457 posted on 11/02/2002 11:11:35 AM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
Is that not what anti Christ means?
458 posted on 11/02/2002 11:34:04 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I dunno.

I look at 13:5&6 to 8 and wonder if that's a piece that then gets inserted into verse 21 that says "and THEN if anyone says 'Behold here or there...false Christs.'"

What do you think?
459 posted on 11/02/2002 11:49:29 AM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
Anti means false so anti Christ means false Christ..do ya spose there have been a few? Do ya spose there will be a few more..Look there he is..no there he is..
Mar 13:22   For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
  
  Mar 13:23   But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.


.Mat 13:11   He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
  
  Mat 13:12   For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
  
  Mat 13:13   Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
460 posted on 11/02/2002 12:18:31 PM PST by RnMomof7
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