Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[MarMema]

I will state again. Essentially, in terms of Doctrine, Catholics and Orthodox have the same Faith. To be honest, their biggest disputes are, and have historically been, far more of a political nature than doctrinal one

Statements such as this one are and have been the source of much conflict here on FR. I can only think that the Catholics are so unaware of the many deeper differences between us that they ignorantly post such things with innocence and believing them to be true.

"Orthodox and Roman Catholics do not simply use different words for the same reality, we experience different realities".
I guess you can say this is simply this author's opinion, and ad infinitum, as we work through yet another and another Orthodox who make nearly identical statements regarding our differences. Delusion is a strong demon.

[Matchett-PI]

"You need a refresher course on Church Unity"

God's church has always been unified. It's unified around the TRUTH. God will never allow the gates of hell to prevail against it.

There is no unity between light (Truth) and darkness (lies), and never will be. Didn't you know that?

You may want to do some study into the difference between the visible church (includes tares) and the invisible church (excludes tares).

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

"Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things which the LORD hates, seven are .. . Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire":

Um, Irisshlass, you need a towel to wipe that off with?

BigMack

[Matchett-PI]

"I do go to Confession. But, then again, I am a Catholic"

You don't need to apologize to me -- Apologize to the Perfect Priest

See if He'll play second-fiddle.

[MarMema]

"If, however. God were essence, or being alone, without His divine energies, if grace were a created thing—as Western Scholastics tell us—then man would be incapable of knowing Him directly, of seeing Him, of becoming a God himself, for a created thing (grace) cannot deify the creature (man). Neither could God Himself be present within creation, nor could He be personally at work within it. Just as the relentless laws of nature must replace an uncreated joy not present in nature, even so the absence of uncreated grace from the life of the Church and of Christians creates a need for an ethical and legal system whose head is the Pope."

Another absolutely critical difference at the core of our churches, affecting each and every part of our beliefs and traditions, is the issue of created versus uncreated grace. This statement makes clear how significant this difference between us is. ( from the same link above)

[RnMomof7]

**Mom, if you read your bible, like you say you do, you should be able to answer your own questions. Luke Chapter 3: 1-22.***

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That post was in response to this where I wrote


I was born a sinner in need of a Savior..no one told me I could not save myself..That had to come from a rebirth...amazing!

And you responded

Mom, get out your bible. Mark 1:9-11. Jesus was Baptised, too. And Confirmed all in one shot.

That was a non answer



As a Catholic then you believe that Baptism is the beginning of your ministry?

Now this is here expressed by a sensible evidence for his encouragement in his work, and for the satisfaction of John the Baptist; for he was told before that by this sign it should be notified to him which was the Christ. Dr. Lightfoot suggests that the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, that he might be revealed to be a personal substance, and not merely an operation of the Godhead: and thus (saith he) was made a full, clear, and sensible demonstration of the Trinity, at the beginning of the gospel; and very fitly is this done at Christ’s baptism, who was to make the ordinance of baptism a badge of the profession of that faith in the doctrine of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

5. There came a voice from heaven, from God the Father, from the excellent glory (so it is expressed, 2 Pt. 1:17), Thou art my beloved Son. Here, and in Mark, it is expressed as spoken to Christ; in Matthew as spoken of him: This is my beloved Son. It comes all to one; it was intended to be a notification to John, and as such was properly expressed by, This is my beloved Son; and likewise an answer to his prayer, and so it is most fitly expressed by. Thou art. It was foretold concerning the Messiah, I will be his Father, and he shall be my Son, 2 Sa. 7:14. I will make him my First-born, Ps. 89:27. It was also foretold that he should be God’s elect, in whom his soul delighted (Isa. 42:1); and, accordingly, it is here declared, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew Henry

It did indeed set Jesus a part as the fulfilled prophecy...
The question was
Was he baptised BECAUSE he need to be "born again" or was it a "sign"

Want to try again?

[Codie]

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remain on the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in me (Jn 15:4)

What fruit do you bear?

[Desdemona]

Want to try again?

No. Not really.

[RnMomof7]

Keys are gone CG...look around you

[CCWoody]

Your post just goes to show just how one sided the hate is from the Catholics. Of course, we expect that the truth we teach will be rejected by the world.

I'd love to post, but I do have responsibilities which have me very busy right now. Keep slogging through all the posts of the bigots here and keep me bumped.

[RnMomof7]

Like the DemocRATS that you hear calling Rush who claim to have come from a "long line of DemocRATS", they are AFRAID to go against their "DemocRAT family tradition" (the foundation on which their house of cards is built). They FEAR they will be outcasts in their own family and among their friends if any one of them even happens to hear them talking to him.

Tis true there is alot of Family pressure..being Catholic is a "tradition".But I remember the word of God

    Mat 10:34   Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.   
  Mat 10:35   For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
     Mat 10:36   And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.
     Mat 10:37   He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Amen

[Aquinasfan]

I assume you read this. The arguments are less than compelling although Arthur gets some things right. Unfortunately, sometimes Arthur's typology contradicts Christ's explanation of these types in Scripture

The Ark was made of precious materials, therefore we are to believe that it represented Christ. Well, the tent that housed the ark and the Temple that housed the Ark were made of precious materials, so did those represent Christ too? This would then foreshadow Christ containing Christ containing Christ (the Temple containing the Ark containing the three other things that represent Christ).

Regarding the manna the author makes this very weak analogy:

Thus the amount preserved was the measure of a man; but the golden pot which contained it tells us that this Man is now glorified, the same thought being found in the "crown of gold which was round about the ark." This is confirmed by a comparison of Exodus 25:18 with Hebrews 9:5 where the cherubim of "gold" are called the cherubim of "glory." It is, then, in the Man Christ Jesus, now crowned with glory and honor, that God’s food for His people is to be found.

I find it strange that you prefer Arthur Pink's tortured typology regarding the manna to Christ's simple explanation of what the manna foreshadowed:

8I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

These words of Jesus are in the Bible. Arthur Pink's interpretation is not.

Arthur does better with Aaron's staff:

How plain is the type. That which answers to it is found in the ministry of our great High Priest in heaven, who secures our salvation to the uttermost by His constant intercessions for us (Heb. 7:25).

But he ignores the Scriptures which make clear that "Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek" who sacrificed bread and wine to God, who was the type for the new, eternal High Priest, Jesus, who offered His Body and Blood under the appearance of bread and wine at the Last Supper and eternally through the sacrament of the Eucharist. As Jesus instructed them at the Last Supper, the Apostles continued to offer Jesus' Body and Blood under the appearance of bread and wine (making present Christ's death on the Cross) as can be seen in 1 Corinthians 11 where some who ate the Lord's Body and Blood unworthily died.

Arthur gets the part right about the Decalogue (the "Ten Words") being a type for the Word made flesh.

It is clear from Scripture that the contents of the Ark were a type for Jesus and that the Ark itself was a type for Mary.

[RnMomof7]

Isa 44:18   They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.

 
  Mat 13:13   Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
  
  Mat 13:14   And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Rom 8:7   Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Mat 16:17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jhn 6:65   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 6:39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[RnMomof7]

Matthew 7:1-5 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

This is not an admonition NOT to judge false doctrine..it was a warning to make righteous judgement ,,,

John 7:24  24.  Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13
 11.  But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
 12.  What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
 13.  God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

  1 Corinthians 6:2-5
 2.  Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
 3.  Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
 4.  Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
 5.  I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?

    1 Corinthians 10:15
 15.  I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.

     

[RnMomof7]

Are the men that hear your confession in need of confession themselves? The keys are gone

[Catholicguy]

<> I LOVED your last example.<>

[Catholicguy]

20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

<> Well, I do go to Confession. But, then again, I am a Catholic and so I follow Jesus, not Jean Cauvin.<>

[Catholicguy]

<> It seems to be the Calvinist position that everything is predetermined. Even that I am predetermined to go to Hell. That dark doctrine makes of Jesus a Liar. You are welcome to it. I want no part of that Evil.

IF all had been predetermined, then one would have to conclude that Jesus established His Church, sent the Holy Spirit upon it to Teach it all truth, promised to be with His Church until the end of time but He was intentionallly Lying. He REALLY did not intend that.

No, according to the logic of Calvinism, He established His Catholic Church to spread errors and falsehoods, lies, and false Doctrine for 16 Centuries before finally raising up the great champion Calvin to set everything right.

In the meantime 100's of millions of Christians lived and died and were sent to Hell for everlasting punishment for believing the false doctrine spread by the Catholic Church that Jesus established because that was the predetermined plan of God. Serves them bastards right

Yep, it all makes perfect sense to me when I look at it that way.:)<>

<> This is your Faith. And it is the Faith that the_doc got you to accept. Do you think for a nanosecond I'd fall for such evil insanity?<>

[Codie]

The keys are gone

Who holds them now?

[RnMomof7]

****Is it against Christ's will for there to be division in His Church?

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing; and that there be no dissension among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment." (1 Cor. 1:10.)****

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  2Cr 6:15   And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
  
  2Cr 6:16   And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
  
  2Cr 6:17   Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
  
  2Cr 6:18   And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.