Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[RnMomof7]

I do agree with what you say here, even if our views would differ on most other things. I would also add that just as there are many Catholics who don't know the Bible as they should (including myself) there are just as many Protestants that do not.

All Protestants are not saved. Unsaved people have no interest in the word of God..it gets in their way.

Going to church does not make one a Christian it makes them someone that goes to church

A regenerate Christian will have a love for the word of God. They will want to read it to see what God is like, what he has to say to them in it. It will be a real hunger for the things of God.

So no ALL protestants do not read the Bible ...they have no more interest in God that the unchurched man next door. It is not the church that determines the devotion to the word..it is the spiritual condition of the individual..

[Aquinasfan]

Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

Catholics consider Mary "blessed among women," "perfected in grace," the "Queen of Heaven" and saint par excellence. Therefore, since the prayer of a righteous person avails much, Mary's prayer will avail more than any other person's.

Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.

Perhaps the petitioners are saying that, at least theoretically, God could choose to mediate all graces through Jesus and then Mary.

Even granting this maximalist position, the gulf between Mary's mediation and Jesus' mediation would be as immeasurable as the infinite gulf between Creator and creation, Source of Grace and channel of grace.

[JesseShurun]

You are just plain wrong as usual. The Church of Mary saves. You want a big Church for it is the Ark of the New Covenant so you can fit in all the people 2 by 2. Once in, the people are the New Covenant and then they start saving. It's all so logical and simple, get with it.

your humble saving guy, His Emminence Jesse Mary Joseph 1st

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Thank you. That was pretty much what was told to me yesterday. And as I told the person yesterday if that is what is meant that would fit the rest of the cathechism.

But I will add that in a casual reading of this you would have to say there is a wide gulf between "granting grace" and "Channeling grace". Therefore I think it odd that the writers of the petition did not word it "channel"

Also the phrase "authority to influence" is very ambiguous. My intreprator yesterday could not even define that one, he was puzzled by the statement.

Anyway I was just wanting other Catholic opinions.

Becky

[Aquinasfan]

And whether or not Mary needed a savior is between her and God.

Mary was saved "before the fact." Since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is eternal, Mary was saved "prior" to her conception. Consider the following analogy. There is a hole in front of you. I can let you fall in and then pull you out or I can push you away before you fall in. Either way, I saved you.

[RnMomof7]

In a sense Israel was the Ark of the Ark of the Covenant since the Ark was entrusted to Israel's care. Can the Church be the Ark of the New Covenant? In the sense that Mary (the Ark of the New Covenant) was entrusted to the care of the Church (Jesus entrusts Mary to John at Calvary), the Church can be considered the Ark of the Ark of the New Covenant.

That my friend is gobbly gook...first you say Ahhh Mary is the ark...then yea well so is Israel...and ahh so is the Chuch...can Jessie be the ark too? I am sure we can make him "fit"

The main attraction in the second room was the Ark of the Covenant, because this is where God sent His presence to talk to Moses.  What was the ark?  The word ark means chest.  It was a box of wood that was covered with pure gold. 

Inside the box, Moses was commanded to place the Tables of Law, the actual stone tablets on which the Ten Commandments were engraved.  As time went by, other items were placed in the ark, including the pot of manna and Aaron's rod that budded.  

Again, God was revealing more and more about His nature and how much He loves us with each item used in the worship services.  The law meant that we had to be obedient to God.  Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not to destroy it.  The manna reminded the people that we are to depend on God daily for our life.  It was a constant reminder that God provides for us.  The rod that budded showed that God chooses who He desires to serve Him.  Aaron was chosen to be a priest before God.  God loves each of us and shows favor to some to become priests.  The rod was a symbol of authority and all authority rests with God.  Finally, the mercy seat sat on top of the ark.  The cherubim or angels on each end faced each other and covered the ark with their wings.   How appropriate that it was called the mercy seat, because this was where God met with his people and forgave them of their sins.

Jesus was the ark:>)

[JesseShurun]

No, I'm the Ark.

your arkness, Jesse Mary Joseph 1st

[xzins]

and ahh so is the Chuch

Who's Chuck?

Alright Chuckie boy, that little red haired girl is NO PROBLEM!

Doncha just miss Charlie Schultz every now 'n' then?

[RnMomof7]

So sorry your honor..urrrr ark urrrrrr

[RnMomof7]

Mary said she needed a Savior ..now if she was lying then she was not sinless

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Mary was saved "before the fact." Since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is eternal, Mary was saved "prior" to her conception.

Do you believe this because of something from scripture or because of oral tradition?

Becky

[xzins]

looks like the thread has degenerated a bit....isn't neat how after a while you can tell when one of these is dying....and when one ain't gonna fly....and when one is a premie?

Church tonight. You two going?

[JesseShurun]

I don't have to anymore. By adopting the Catholic plan that Aquinas and eggo have shown me, there's no need.

your humble savingkinda guy, His Emminence Jesse Mary Joseph 1st

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I personally am uncomfortable with the term co-redemptrix. I am very comfortable saying that Mary is righfully due great honor and reverence as the Mother of Jesus.

Too bad more Catholics can't express themselves as well as you do.

Thanks

Becky

[xzins]

I'm impressed.

How 'bout sending a dispensation or indulgence my way.

[JesseShurun]

You can follow me if you want to, but now that I've entered the temple and proven to myself that I am God, well,now I'm Someone You Don't Want To Know.

your humble antichrist, His Emminence Jesse Mary Joseph 1st

[RnMomof7]

Anything to contribute?

[KennyV]

"He was reasoning by analogy. He in no way intended to trick or fool others."

It was not a good analogy because the Scripture was taken way out of context. He got the reaction from the audience he wanted. I still think he knew what he was doing.

I can only speak for myself and the Church I attend. When I attended the Catholic Church I didn't know anyone who read the Bible and don't remember ever being encouraged to. In my current Church I know many people who read the Bible regularly, and it is encouraged during the teaching most weeks. It is this that I based my comment on. I have no idea what percentage of people truely study the Bible. I'm sure there were Catholic's who did and I just didn't know it.

You are correct that I "abandoned the Ark of Salvation", about eight years ago when I stopped attending Church and even became bitterly vocal against God. But due to what I consider a unique and wonderfull set of circumstances my current Church found me.

I consider my authority Jesus and the Bible the inspired Word of God. It is to this authority that I put everything to the test to determine what is true. I don't just take anyone's word on issues of doctrine. Good tradition is good. Good teaching is good. What makes it good is when it complements the Bible. What makes it bad is when it contradicts the Bible.

I'm sure we have much in common, but also some things we would disagree on. Truth will prevail. I've a fairly open mind that can be changed, given the evidence. That's why I read these threads. I'll keep reading, and keep on sucking up all this good info:-)

Lord, I pray for wisdom and correct discernment for myself and all those who read these posts. This, so that we can glorify you in the mannor you intended when you created us. Thank you Jesus for taking our sins and dying that horrible death, the death we deserve, so that we may have eternal life. You are my Lord and Savior, and in Your name I pray to the Father. Amen.

May God bless

[xzins]

About $5. Where do I send it?

Nah....gotta head for the church. Genesis 33-35 and prayer meeting.