Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[RnMomof7]

I do agree with what you say here, even if our views would differ on most other things. I would also add that just as there are many Catholics who don't know the Bible as they should (including myself) there are just as many Protestants that do not.

All Protestants are not saved. Unsaved people have no interest in the word of God..it gets in their way.

Going to church does not make one a Christian it makes them someone that goes to church

A regenerate Christian will have a love for the word of God. They will want to read it to see what God is like, what he has to say to them in it. It will be a real hunger for the things of God.

So no ALL protestants do not read the Bible ...they have no more interest in God that the unchurched man next door. It is not the church that determines the devotion to the word..it is the spiritual condition of the individual..

[Aquinasfan]

Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

Catholics consider Mary "blessed among women," "perfected in grace," the "Queen of Heaven" and saint par excellence. Therefore, since the prayer of a righteous person avails much, Mary's prayer will avail more than any other person's.

Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.

Perhaps the petitioners are saying that, at least theoretically, God could choose to mediate all graces through Jesus and then Mary.

Even granting this maximalist position, the gulf between Mary's mediation and Jesus' mediation would be as immeasurable as the infinite gulf between Creator and creation, Source of Grace and channel of grace.

[JesseShurun]

You are just plain wrong as usual. The Church of Mary saves. You want a big Church for it is the Ark of the New Covenant so you can fit in all the people 2 by 2. Once in, the people are the New Covenant and then they start saving. It's all so logical and simple, get with it.

your humble saving guy, His Emminence Jesse Mary Joseph 1st

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Thank you. That was pretty much what was told to me yesterday. And as I told the person yesterday if that is what is meant that would fit the rest of the cathechism.

But I will add that in a casual reading of this you would have to say there is a wide gulf between "granting grace" and "Channeling grace". Therefore I think it odd that the writers of the petition did not word it "channel"

Also the phrase "authority to influence" is very ambiguous. My intreprator yesterday could not even define that one, he was puzzled by the statement.

Anyway I was just wanting other Catholic opinions.

Becky

[Aquinasfan]

And whether or not Mary needed a savior is between her and God.

Mary was saved "before the fact." Since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is eternal, Mary was saved "prior" to her conception. Consider the following analogy. There is a hole in front of you. I can let you fall in and then pull you out or I can push you away before you fall in. Either way, I saved you.

[RnMomof7]

In a sense Israel was the Ark of the Ark of the Covenant since the Ark was entrusted to Israel's care. Can the Church be the Ark of the New Covenant? In the sense that Mary (the Ark of the New Covenant) was entrusted to the care of the Church (Jesus entrusts Mary to John at Calvary), the Church can be considered the Ark of the Ark of the New Covenant.

That my friend is gobbly gook...first you say Ahhh Mary is the ark...then yea well so is Israel...and ahh so is the Chuch...can Jessie be the ark too? I am sure we can make him "fit"

The main attraction in the second room was the Ark of the Covenant, because this is where God sent His presence to talk to Moses.  What was the ark?  The word ark means chest.  It was a box of wood that was covered with pure gold. 

Inside the box, Moses was commanded to place the Tables of Law, the actual stone tablets on which the Ten Commandments were engraved.  As time went by, other items were placed in the ark, including the pot of manna and Aaron's rod that budded.  

Again, God was revealing more and more about His nature and how much He loves us with each item used in the worship services.  The law meant that we had to be obedient to God.  Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not to destroy it.  The manna reminded the people that we are to depend on God daily for our life.  It was a constant reminder that God provides for us.  The rod that budded showed that God chooses who He desires to serve Him.  Aaron was chosen to be a priest before God.  God loves each of us and shows favor to some to become priests.  The rod was a symbol of authority and all authority rests with God.  Finally, the mercy seat sat on top of the ark.  The cherubim or angels on each end faced each other and covered the ark with their wings.   How appropriate that it was called the mercy seat, because this was where God met with his people and forgave them of their sins.

Jesus was the ark:>)

[JesseShurun]

No, I'm the Ark.

your arkness, Jesse Mary Joseph 1st

[xzins]

and ahh so is the Chuch

Who's Chuck?

Alright Chuckie boy, that little red haired girl is NO PROBLEM!

Doncha just miss Charlie Schultz every now 'n' then?

[RnMomof7]

So sorry your honor..urrrr ark urrrrrr

[RnMomof7]

Mary said she needed a Savior ..now if she was lying then she was not sinless

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Mary was saved "before the fact." Since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is eternal, Mary was saved "prior" to her conception.

Do you believe this because of something from scripture or because of oral tradition?

Becky

[xzins]

looks like the thread has degenerated a bit....isn't neat how after a while you can tell when one of these is dying....and when one ain't gonna fly....and when one is a premie?

Church tonight. You two going?

[JesseShurun]

I don't have to anymore. By adopting the Catholic plan that Aquinas and eggo have shown me, there's no need.

your humble savingkinda guy, His Emminence Jesse Mary Joseph 1st

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I personally am uncomfortable with the term co-redemptrix. I am very comfortable saying that Mary is righfully due great honor and reverence as the Mother of Jesus.

Too bad more Catholics can't express themselves as well as you do.

Thanks

Becky

[xzins]

I'm impressed.

How 'bout sending a dispensation or indulgence my way.

[JesseShurun]

You can follow me if you want to, but now that I've entered the temple and proven to myself that I am God, well,now I'm Someone You Don't Want To Know.

your humble antichrist, His Emminence Jesse Mary Joseph 1st

[RnMomof7]

Anything to contribute?

[KennyV]

"He was reasoning by analogy. He in no way intended to trick or fool others."

It was not a good analogy because the Scripture was taken way out of context. He got the reaction from the audience he wanted. I still think he knew what he was doing.

I can only speak for myself and the Church I attend. When I attended the Catholic Church I didn't know anyone who read the Bible and don't remember ever being encouraged to. In my current Church I know many people who read the Bible regularly, and it is encouraged during the teaching most weeks. It is this that I based my comment on. I have no idea what percentage of people truely study the Bible. I'm sure there were Catholic's who did and I just didn't know it.

You are correct that I "abandoned the Ark of Salvation", about eight years ago when I stopped attending Church and even became bitterly vocal against God. But due to what I consider a unique and wonderfull set of circumstances my current Church found me.

I consider my authority Jesus and the Bible the inspired Word of God. It is to this authority that I put everything to the test to determine what is true. I don't just take anyone's word on issues of doctrine. Good tradition is good. Good teaching is good. What makes it good is when it complements the Bible. What makes it bad is when it contradicts the Bible.

I'm sure we have much in common, but also some things we would disagree on. Truth will prevail. I've a fairly open mind that can be changed, given the evidence. That's why I read these threads. I'll keep reading, and keep on sucking up all this good info:-)

Lord, I pray for wisdom and correct discernment for myself and all those who read these posts. This, so that we can glorify you in the mannor you intended when you created us. Thank you Jesus for taking our sins and dying that horrible death, the death we deserve, so that we may have eternal life. You are my Lord and Savior, and in Your name I pray to the Father. Amen.

May God bless

[xzins]

About $5. Where do I send it?

Nah....gotta head for the church. Genesis 33-35 and prayer meeting.