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Are Men Born Sinners? The Myth of Original Sin
THE GOSPEL TRUTH ^ | 1995 | A. T. Overstreet

Posted on 09/14/2002 11:27:48 AM PDT by Itsfreewill

My friend and I stood looking down at his tiny newborn baby, lying contentedly in his crib. "Of course," said my friend, "our little Tommy is a sinner."

These words were a continuation of the doctrine my friend had taught earlier in his Sunday school class: a doctrine that is accepted as orthodoxy almost universally in our churches, the doctrine that all of humanity sinned in Adam when he ate the forbidden fruit, that Adam's sin, its guilt, and its curse were imputed to all his descendants, and that all of his descendants are now born with an Adamic sin nature which makes sin unavoidable and makes us "by nature the children of wrath."

What makes this incredible doctrine believable is the fact that there are verses in the Bible which seem to teach it. Psalm 51:5 comes immediately to the mind of the Christian who has been taught to believe in the doctrine of original sin: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." This settles it for the Christian. If the Bible says we were "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin," then it has to be so.

And the above text would teach that men are born sinners if it were meant to be taken literally. But the language of this text is not literal, it is figurative. Both context and reality demand a figurative interpretation of this text.

For example, let's compare Psalm 51:5 with Job 1:21, which says: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." If Psalm 51:5 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that David and all other men are born sinners, then Job 1:21 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb.

Neither Psalm 51:5 nor Job 1:21 is to be understood literally. They are both figurative expressions. Both context and our knowledge of reality demand a figurative interpretation of these two texts.

David uses figurative language throughout his Psalms. In fact, in the 51st Psalm, verses five, seven, and eight are all figurative expressions. So if verse five can be made to teach that men are born sinners, then verse seven can be made to teach that hyssop cleanses us from sin when it says, "Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean." Also, verse eight can be made to teach the doctrine that God breaks the Christian's bones when he sins, and that his broken bones rejoice when he is forgiven "Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice." Another of David's Psalms, Psalm 58:3, can be made to teach the astonishing doctrine that babies speak from the very moment they are born: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

But who would seriously teach from this last text that babies actually do speak as soon as they are born? None of these passages is meant to be understood in a literal sense. They are all figurative expressions. If they were understood literally, they would all teach what we know to be contrary to reality; for reality teaches us that bones don't rejoice, hyssop doesn't purge sin, babies don't speak as soon as they leave the womb, and an unborn child is not morally depraved.

The same rules of interpretation that would permit Psalm 51:5 to teach that babies are born sinners, would, if applied to these passages (or if applied to many other passages in the Bible), allow for every kind of perversion and wild interpretation of God's Word. Look again at the words of Job 1:21: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." Did Job, by these words, mean to teach that he and all other men would some day go back into their mother's womb? We know that such a meaning is absurd. But it is just as reasonable to give to Job 1:21 the nonsensical meaning that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb, as it is to give to Psalm 51:5 the nonsensical meaning that David and all other men are born sinners. David was not teaching in this passage that he was born a sinner. He instead was confessing to God the awful guilt and sinfulness of his heart, and he cried out to God in strong language the language of figure and symbol to express that awful guilt and sinfulness.

But if David intended to affirm that he was literally "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin," then he affirmed absolute nonsense, and he charged his Creator with making him a sinner; for David knew that God was his Maker:

Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73

You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body, and knit them together in my mother's womb. Psalm 139:13 (Living Bible)

Know ye that the Lord he is God: It is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3

Are we to understand from these passages that God fashions men into sinners in their mother's womb? No, we know that God does not create sinners. Yet, upon the supposition that Psalm 51:5 teaches that men are born sinners, these texts could teach nothing else. Who cannot see that the doctrine that men are born sinners charges God with creating sinners? It represents man as being formed a sinner in his mother's womb, when the Bible clearly teaches that God forms man in his mother's womb. It represents man as coming into this world a sinner, when the Bible clearly teaches that God creates all men. It may be objected that God created only Adam and Eve, and that the rest of mankind descended from them by natural generation. But this objection does not relieve the doctrine of an inherited sin nature of its slander and libel of the character of God. For if man has a sinful nature at birth, who is it who established the laws of procreation under which he would be born with that nature? God, of course. There is no escaping the logical inference that is implicit in the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. It is a blasphemous and slanderous libel on the character of God.

But one might as well reject the Bible out of hand, if he does not want to recognize that God is the Creator of all men. For the fact that God is the Creator of all men is one of the clearest truths taught in the Bible.

Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73

Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13, 14

Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? Job 31:15

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. Jer. 1:5

Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth. Eccl. 12:1

Know ye that the Lord he is God; it is he that hath made us and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3

I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth...for it repenteth me that I have made them. Gen. 6:7

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen. 1:26,27

Ye are gods; and all of you are the children of the most High. Psalm 82:6

For in the image of God made he man. Gen. 9:6

Man is the image and glory of God. I Cor. 11:7

Men are made after the similitude of God. James 3:9

The Lord formeth the spirit of man within him. Zech. 12:1

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4

He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. Acts 17:25

We are the offspring of God. Acts 17:29

I am the root and the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Eccl. 7:29

This last text not only declares that God has created man, but it also affirms that God created man upright. If man is created upright, he cannot be born a sinner; and if he is born a sinner, he cannot be created upright. Either one or the other may be true, but they cannot both be true for the two are contradictories.

But when God says he "created us in his image, and gave us life and breath and all things," are we to understand that he created us as sinners? When he says, "We are his offspring," are we to understand that his offspring are born sinners? When Jesus said, "I am the root and the offspring of David," are we to understand that David sprang forth from the root Christ Jesus with a sinful nature? Or, are we to understand that Jesus, as the offspring of David, was born with a sinful nature? The very fact that Jesus was a man, descended from Adam, and born with a human nature as we are, shows that men are not born with a sinful nature. I John 4:3, II John 7, Heb. 2:14, Heb. 2:16-18, Heb. 4:15, Rom. 1:3, Matt. 1:1, Luke 3:38.

The doctrine of original sin is false: it slanders and libels the character of God, it shocks man's god-given consciousness of justice, and it flies in the face of the plainest teachings of God's holy Word. The doctrine of original sin is not a Bible doctrine. It is a grotesque myth that contradicts the Bible on almost every page. But because good Christians can quote texts from the Bible to "prove" the doctrine of original sin, they are convinced it is true. But good Christians have rejected truth and clung to error in the name of the Bible before.

For instance, Galileo and Copernicus brought to the church the truth that the earth was not the center of the universe, that the sun did not go around the earth but that the earth went around the sun and that the earth rotated on its axis, giving the illusion that the sun was going around the earth.

We all know this to be true now, but did all good Christians believe it then? No, both John Calvin and Martin Luther clung, along with the church, to the error that the earth was the center of the universe, that the sun went around the earth and that the earth stood still.

"Martin Luther called Copernicus 'an upstart astrologer' and a 'fool who wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy.' Calvin thundered: 'Who will venture to place the authority of Copernicus above that of the Holy Spirit? Do not the Scriptures say that Joshua commanded the sun and not the earth to stand still? That the sun runs from one end of the heavens to the other?'"

Both Calvin and Luther were good, well-meaning men, but they still clung to their false views because they could quote Scripture texts to support them. Likewise, there are good, well-meaning Christians today who also erroneously cling to the doctrine of original sin because they can quote texts from the Bible to "prove" it.

It is these texts, that have been taken out of context and misinterpreted to support this false doctrine, that we will examine in the next chapter.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5

The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psalm 58:3

And were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph. 2:3

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one. Job 14:4

What is man that he should be clean, and he that is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Job 15:14

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:12, 18, 19


TOPICS: General Discusssion
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To: Hank Kerchief
If you think his nature was different in some way, please quote the verse that says, "Jesus' nature was different than other men's."

John 5:18...Jesus' opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

John 8:58..quizzed about Abraham, Jesus said, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"..."I AM" or "Yahweh" is the personal name of God.

John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus' feet..."My Lord and my God!"

Philippiians 2:6 Pauls says that Christ Jesus "who, being in very NATURE God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"

IS 44:6..."Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redemmer, Yahweh of armies: 'I am the First and I am the Last, besides me there is no God'"

Rev 1:17..."When I saw him (Christ), I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, 'Fear not, I am the First and the Last'" Rev 2:8 "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life."

Rev 22:12-13 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for WHAT HE HAS DONE." Rev 22:12-13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end."

21 posted on 09/14/2002 9:29:36 PM PDT by Irisshlass
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To: Itsfreewill
read in the morning
22 posted on 09/14/2002 9:46:50 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Irisshlass
So you are saying the Jesus was not really a man?

Hank

23 posted on 09/14/2002 10:15:43 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief
Yes Jesus had a different nature than Adam.

Jesus was fully man, and also fully God.

Adam was fully man, but not God at all.

Jesus did not sin, nor did He have sin in His heart.

Jesus DID indeed have another nature, that nature was righteousness.

God cannot be anything else but righteous.


24 posted on 09/15/2002 12:16:07 AM PDT by zadok
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To: RnMomof7
I have absolute confidence in the justice and mercy of God..He will do what is right and just IN HIS EYES

That's right. It can be deliberated all day long but in the end God is more merciful and just than we can imagine as mere humans.

Btw, we don't accept the concept of original sin. I thought it was only an RC thing?

25 posted on 09/15/2002 1:13:15 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: Hank Kerchief
The moral problem with the sinful nature heresy introduced into Christian doctrine by Augustine, is it makes sin something that happens to people, not something they do

Wow, great post!! Also the thing about sin being contrary to human nature--- absolutely!!!

26 posted on 09/15/2002 1:15:06 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: Hank Kerchief
After the fall, man became "physcially" depraved, mortal, and subject to disease and easily inflamed desires in a world also under the curse

More good words....agreed!!

27 posted on 09/15/2002 1:17:27 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: Hank Kerchief
The moral problem with the sinful nature heresy introduced into Christian doctrine by Augustine, is it makes sin something that happens to people, not something they do. Guilt can only pertain to chosen action, God declares it unjust to hold someone guilty for what another has done.

Tell me more about Augustine?

28 posted on 09/15/2002 4:44:58 AM PDT by Itsfreewill
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To: MarMema
No kidding... You do not accept original sin??

It is a doctrinal belief for almost all Christianity..what there is disagreement on is the effect of it and the way there is regeneration...

29 posted on 09/15/2002 5:27:44 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: MarMema
You think sin is CONTRARY to huimans nature?? Come on Mar.,..look around you..man needs a new nature..that is why Jesus said you must be born again
30 posted on 09/15/2002 5:29:13 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: MarMema; RnMomof7
The Imputation of Adam's Sin
S. Lewis Johnson, Jr.
Introduction
The Christian church has lost the sense of the importance of theology. The church, therefore, is weak. "We hear, repeatedly," Elton Trueblood has said, "the cliché that deeds are everything while beliefs are unimportant; but this is manifest nonsense. The truth is that belief leads to action, and acting often depends upon believing. We are wise to remind ourselves of what Dr. Johnson said to Boswell on July 14, 1763, apropos of a man who denied the existence of a moral order: 'If he does really think that there is no distinction between virtue and vice, why Sir, when he leaves our house, let us count our spoons. '" [1]

One of the great theological words is the word imputation. It means to think (cf. Rom. 2:3) , to count (4:3) , and to reckon (6:11) , or perhaps we should say, more accurately, that the verb to impute means those things. The Greek verb logidsomai and the Hebrew verb chashab, which underlie the English words in the English translations, mean essentially the same thing (cf. Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:3, 6).

There are three great acts of imputation in the Bible. They are these:

First, the imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity, or to the whole race of men (cf. 1 Cor. 15:21-22).
Second, there is the imputation of the sin of the elect to Jesus Christ, who bore that sin's penalty in His death upon the cross (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13).
Third, the imputation of the righteousness of God to the elect (cf. Rom. 3:24-26; 4:1-8).
It is to the first of these imputations that the passage in Romans 5:12 refers. In it Paul offers an important interpretation of the sin of Adam, one that is fundamental for all theology.

The question of the imputation of sin to the human race raises many questions, some of which are more important than others. For example, one might ask, "Is the doctrine of sin itself all that important?" The answer to that is very easy. Of course, for that is the reason that He came in the first place, is it not? Does not the evangelist make that point (cf. Matt. 1:21)?

But, "Is the human situation today the same as in Paul's day?" Well, one could hardly call Paul dated. He is vindicated in his teaching every day. Unbelief, pride, materialism, and all the other products of the Adamic nature, abound in the present culture.

But, "Is Paul's diagnosis true and tenable?" Have the march of scientific advance and the discoveries of modern psychology antiquated the Pauline solution? Is modern man's predicament really due simply to capitalism as the Marxist might claim? Is it due to ignorance and lack of heart as the modern liberal says? Can we expect these philosophies to rid us of the sin that doth so easily beset us and bring us on thinkers' wings to the New Jerusalem on earth? When will man learn that he does evil, because he is evil? Speaking of the professing Christians of liberal persuasion, Reinhold Niebuhr once said something like this, namely, that such men and women had begun to put their trust in a God without wrath who brings men without sin into a kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross. [2] It is a brilliant and true insight. The holocaust of two world-wide conflicts and many other minor ones in this century have shown that thinking men and women cannot but believe that there is something radically wrong with the heart of man. Would that they would study the Pauline solution! Man does evil, Paul would say, because he is evil, and the root cause of the problem is what happened centuries ago in that beautiful garden planted by God. That is the subject of the text that we study in this message.

I. THE ORIGINATION OF HUMAN SIN AND DEATH
The source (Rom. 5:12a). The apostle opens the discussion by the statement, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin . . . ." And the first question the reader should have is, "What is the connection between verses twelve through twenty-one and verses one through eleven? Paul's connecting phrase, dia touto (AV/ "wherefore"), is causal and is to be rendered by for this cause. We shall by-pass the discussion of the meaning of the phrase and simply state the conclusion from my own study of the matter. Paul appears to me to be saying: For^ this cause, that is, we now have a sure salvation by one man, Jesus Christ, there exists this likeness between Christ and Adam.. As the-world was introduced to sin and death by the first Adam, so it has been introduced to righteousness and life by the Last Adam. Sin, condemnation, and death are by our human progenitor, just as righteousness, justification, and life are by our spiritual progenitor, Jesus Christ.

"The master-thought of the whole passage," Gifford believes, "is that unity of the many in the one, which forms the point of comparison between Adam and Christ." [3] So, if one should ask, How by the well-doing of one, Jesus Christ, are the many saved? it may be said, in reply, How by the disobedience of one, Adam, were the many condemned? The picture is that of solidarity, then, but of contrastive solidarity.

The apostle writes that the origination of human sin is to be traced to "one man." Paul alludes, of course, to the fall in the Garden of Eden. There, after the creation of Adam and Eve, God placed them and gave the terms of the probation to Adam, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:16-17). The tree was not the symbol of the sex act, as some have contended, nor was it symbolic of wine. It was a test of man's creature-hood, for the condition hinged upon man's belief in the Word of God. And, of course, it was not provocation on God's part, for the maxi- mum of freedom was permitted man and the minimum was forbidden. Nevertheless, sin came and man fell. Adam became the instrumental cause by which sin entered the world.

The fact (Gen. 5:12a). The apostle writes, "sin entered." The sin of Adam in one sense was an irrational act, for no explanation of sin can be given that makes it reasonable. In this instance it arose in the heart of Adam as an inclination to take the fruit from the hand of his wife. At the moment that the inclination began, Adam sinned. The action that followed is the completion of the inclination. Adam, it is to be noted, wanted the one thing that was forbidden him. Like a little child, who has all the toys but one, and yet tries to get that one from his playmate, so Adam, the big child, acted childishly and evilly by desiring the fruit from the tree in the midst of the garden.

The apostle's use of the word, "entered," should be noted, too. The word, which looks at the fall by its tense, suggests that sin was in existence in the universe before the fall (cf. 1 Tim. 2:14). Paul gives us no details of that fact, although there are some hints in other parts of the Scripture that seem to say that sin began in heaven with the sin of Lucifer (cf. John 8:44; Ezek. 28:11-19; Isa. 14:12-17). At any rate, Adam's sin was the original human sin, so far as the devastating results for the human race are concerned.

The result (Gen. 5:12a). The catastrophic result of the first human sin is stated in the words, "and death by sin." The fact that sin is said to be the basis of universal death strongly implies that Adam's sin has produced universal sin. The clause, "and death by sin," clearly teaches that death is a penal evil and, as Hodge points out, "not a con- sequence of the original constitution of man." [4] That which was implied in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 is here stated plainly. While Chrysostom, Augustine, and Meyer regarded the death here as physical, the greater number of commentators regard it as both physical (cf. 5:14; Gen. 3:9) and spiritual (cf. 5:18, 21; 6:23: here the death is contrasted with spiritual life, for Paul writes, "eternal life").

There are three aspects to the death that is the result of sin, although the penalty is really one penalty. The first aspect has to do with spiritual death. It is clear from the fact that Adam was told "in the day" that he ate of the fruit he would die that the reference to death is fundamentally spiritual, for he did not die physically when he ate the fruit. Thus, death in Genesis 2:17 must be spiritual death.

The second aspect is seen in Genesis 3:19, where, after Adam had fallen, it was said that he should eventually become dust. The words are, "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." There the reference is plainly to physical death.

The third aspect is found in Genesis 3:22-24, where man is driven forth from the Garden of Eden, and the way back is barred to sinning man forever. More clearly, however, is the death that is eternal found in Revelation 20:11-15.

To sum up, when Adam sinned, he died spiritually immediately. In Adam's case, he was brought to faith and thus escaped the eternal effects of spiritual death. He did not, however, escape the effects of physical death, and he eventually died physically. When the unbelieving man dies, he dies physically, for he was already dead spiritually. Thus, spiritual death leads to physical death and, if salvation does not come, then that spiritual death, which leads to physical death, is prolonged to eternal death. The three aspects of death, then, are spiritual, physical, and eternal.

The remedies of death are set forth in the Word of God also. The remedy for spiritual death is eternal life, the gift of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the suffering and crucified Savior. The remedy of physical death is the bodily resurrection, which takes place at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ for believers. For eternal death there is no remedy!

II. THE IMPUTATION OF SIN AND DEATH
The apostle moves from the entrance of sin in one man to its penetration to all. He writes, "and so death passed upon all men." The death referred to is probably physical in its emphasis, but it appears to me that in this context it is inseparable from spiritual death.

The most interesting words are, "passed upon all men." The Greek word is one that means literally passed through. With it the apostle refers to the diffusion of sin and death and, since he adds "upon all men, it is clear that he thinks of the diffusion of sin as universal in its scope. One is reminded of the psalmist's, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (58:3), and of Moses1, "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; FOR THE IMAGINATION OF MAN'S HEART IS EVIL FROM HIS YOUTH; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done" (Gen. 8:21).

"Oh, the awful power which sin thus to turn the world into one vast cemetery, and to slay the whole human race," Mr. Spurgeon said. [5]

Barnhouse writes, "Some who read these words may react against the truth that we set forth. But we remind them that we do not originate truth, we reflect it. We teach only what is in the Word of God. If you quarrel with us, you must first prove that we are teaching what the Bible does not teach.

"Throughout the Bible, the principle of collective judgment because of sin is taught. In the Ten Commandments we read: 'I the Lord your God am a jealous God (jealous for them to have the best) visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations . . . (Ex. 20:5, 6)." [6] Cf. Ezek. 18:2.

Ill. THE FOUNDATION OF THE IMPUTATION
The final clause of the verse has been one of the major battlegrounds of the systems of theology. In what sense may we say that all sinned? That is the question. Now, there are a number of interpretations that have been offered, and it is impossible within the limits of this paper to speak of them all. What I shall attempt to do is to refer to the most important of them, and then to suggest one for consideration as the most likely view of Paul.

First, there are many who, like Pelagius, but including such distinguished scholars as James Denney [7] and C. K. Barrett, [8] who refer the last clause to the actual personal sins of individual men (cf. 3:23). This interpretation would be more likely, if the present tense had been used, "for all are sinning." Further, the repeated claim is made in vv. 15-19 that only one sin is the cause of the death of all. Five times Paul makes that point. Finally, verse fourteen is opposed to this view, for there it is stated that certain persons, part of the all and ones who suffer death as the penalty of sin, did not commit sins resembling Adam's-- that is, individual and conscious transgressions. They must, then, have died because of Adam's sin. The Pelagian theory, therefore, in spite of its illustrious advocates, must be discarded. [9]

Second, there are many who have seen in the clause a reference to a realistic union between Adam and his descendants. This view, like the final two to be discussed, is based on a common understanding of the relation of the final clause to the main clause. It is admitted that the death of all is grounded in the sin of all (v. 12), and that the death of all is grounded also in the sin of one, Adam (vv. 15-19). In some way and for some reason, Paul is able to say that one sinned and that all sinned--and in both statements refer to the same fact. [10] This solidarity and universality, or this union, must be a part of any explanation of Romans 5:12. Shedd contended that the union between Adam and his posterity was genealogical and biological and must be regarded as natural or seminal (cf. Heb. 7:9-10). Thus, men were co-sinners with Adam in the fullest sense of the term. All the individuals descending from Adam participated in his humanity, which was a specific and numerically one entity, and, thus, in his act of sin. They were in him really when he sinned. The interpretation does full justice to the past tense in "sinned," but there are insurmountable objections to the view. Since at the time Adam sinned, his posterity as individuals and persons did not exist, how was it possible for them to act in Adam? Can we act in a real sense, before we are? Second, Romans five over and over relates our sin and guilt to the act of one man, but never once to the act of all men, which one would expect, if realism were true. Further, the analogy drawn in the passage between Adam and Christ is broken, for our justification is not related to the fact that we were in Christ seminally when He died for our sins. Finally, the last clause of verse fourteen overthrows realism, for it suggests that there is a different modus in sinning for some people. Realism, however, cannot admit any, for by its very definition every man is supposed to have been in Adam, when he sinned.

Third, two final views involve the principle of imputation and the truth of representative union. One is called mediate imputation, and the other immediate imputation. Those holding the theory of mediate imputation contended that, instead of making Adam's first sin the ground of human condemnation and the corrupt nature a consequence, the corrupt nature inherited from Adam is the ground of condemnation. The guilt of the first sin becomes, then, dependent upon participation in the corrupt nature. This view originated with Josua Placaeus, a distinguished professor at the French theological school at Saumur, the school of Moise Amyraut, the foremost proponent of hypothetical universalism in the doctrine of the atonement, or popularly, "four point Calvinism." Aside from the fact that the word, "sinned," cannot mean became corrupt as those who held this view contended, it is inconsistent with the parallelism drawn between Adam and Christ in the passage. Just as we are not justified by inherent righteousness, so we are not condemned by inherent corruption. And also, if inherent depravity is a punishment— and it is hardly possible to argue otherwise— then guilt must have preceded it. What, then, could the guilt be other than the guilt of Adam's first sin?

Fourth, we come, then, to the theory of immediate imputation. According to it, men are understood to have stood their probation in Adam, their natural, or seminal, and representative head. Thus, his act was deemed their act; his sin was their sin. As the Scriptures say, they sinned in Adam (cf. 5:12, 18-19; 1 Cor. 15:22). This is immediate imputation. There is much in the Bible that supports this view. First of all, Adam was a representative head, for the promises of dominion given to him were also given to the race, as the unfolding of the Word of God indicates. The threats given to Adam were threats for the race, and the consequences of his sin fully indicate that. The penal evils have affected the whole race. Further, it is implied in the fact that men are born spiritually dead, evidently under a curse (cf. Eph. 2:1-5). Third, it is most suitable to the illustrative analogy between Adam and Christ drawn by Paul in the section. He says all die because all have sinned (cf. v. 12). Then in vv. 13-19 he says that all die because one sinned. He is hardly dealing with two different things. The one fact may be expressed in terms of both plurality and singularity. The sin of all is the sin of one. The solidarity must be that of federal, or covenantal, representation. [11] Fourth, it enables us to see why only the first sin of Adam and not his subsequent sins, nor the sin of Eve, is imputed to men. Fifth, it is the only interpretation that satisfies the requirements of the relation of vv. 13-14 to v. 12. The "for" indicates that vv. 13-14 are designed to substantiate the statement of verse twelve. If, however, verse twelve means that all men are sinners (cf. Pelagius), or that all have become corrupt (mediate imputation), or even that all actually sinned in Adam (realism), the verses do not substantiate the assertion of verse twelve. If, however, verse twelve asserts that all have sinned in their representative, then everything is clear.

Conclusion
I think I know what some are thinking! First of all, you are saying, "It is not right that something Adam has done before I was born should affect my eternal lot." Well, really it does not, for you may turn in repentance and faith to the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, and be saved eternally.

Actually, if one reflects upon the divine scheme here, he will soon come to the conviction that it is the best possible method of saving men and women. If the testing, or probation, of man were individual, then most of us admit we would have fallen. We would not have had the fact of being the representative for all of our posterity as a check on us to prevent us from easily falling. The representation by Adam makes it possible for the principle to be operative in the case of Christ. He may become our Representative in our salvation. The angels sinned individually, and they have no representative for salvation. I must confess that I like the principle of representation. We fell through no personal fault of our own; we rise through no personal merit of our own. When a father strikes oil, the children get rich. And we have hit a gusher in the Last Adam!

Footnotes
1 Elton Trueblood, A Place to Stand (New York, 1969), p. 19.

2 Reinhold Niebuhr, The Kingdom of- God in America, p. 193.

3 Gifford, p. 115.

4 Hodge, Romans , p. 147.

5 Spurgeon, III, 26.

6 Barnhouse, II, 47.

7 Denney, II, 627-28.

8 Barrett, P. 111.

9 Pelagius ' views, see Pelagius ' Expositions of Thirteen Epistles of_ St. Paul, ed. by A. Souter (Cambridge, 1926), pp. 45, 48.

10 John Murray, The Imputation' of Adam ' s Sin (Grand Rapids, 1959), p. 21.

11 Ibid., Romans, I, 185-86.

Source: http://teachall.net/hl/slj/systematic_theology/anthropology/adamsin.htm

31 posted on 09/15/2002 5:40:26 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: MarMema; RnMomof7
LET ME REPEAT THE CONCLUSION...

Conclusion

I think I know what some are thinking! First of all, you are saying, "It is not right that something Adam has done before I was born should affect my eternal lot." Well, really it does not, for you may turn in repentance and faith to the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, and be saved eternally.

Actually, if one reflects upon the divine scheme here, he will soon come to the conviction that it is the best possible method of saving men and women. If the testing, or probation, of man were individual, then most of us admit we would have fallen. We would not have had the fact of being the representative for all of our posterity as a check on us to prevent us from easily falling. The representation by Adam makes it possible for the principle to be operative in the case of Christ. He may become our Representative in our salvation. The angels sinned individually, and they have no representative for salvation. I must confess that I like the principle of representation. We fell through no personal fault of our own; we rise through no personal merit of our own. When a father strikes oil, the children get rich. And we have hit a gusher in the Last Adam!

32 posted on 09/15/2002 5:43:35 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: RnMomof7
You think sin is CONTRARY to huimans nature??

Yes in that we were made in God's image. We suffer from the consequences of the division incurred as a result of original sin, but we do not bear the guilt.

We were not that heavily influenced by Augustine, if at all. We see him as a western saint.

Here is a blurb from The Orthodox Church -

"The image of God is distorted by sin but never destroyed...and because we still retain the image of God we still retain free will, although sin restricts its scope....Orthodoxy repudiates any interpretation of the fall which allows no room for human freedom....

"But although Orthodox maintain that humans after the fall still posessed free will and were still capable of good actions, they agree with the west in believing that sin had set up a barrier which humanity by its own efforts could never break down. Sin blocked the path to union with God. Since we could not come to God, He came to us."

33 posted on 09/15/2002 7:34:26 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: drstevej; RnMomof7; The_Reader_David
I think we EO put more emphasis on God being present in each and every one of us, on the church as a hospital, and on sin as an illness which keeps us from the ultimate closeness with God. I am sure that we don't accept the guilt of original sin being passed to each and every one of us, but I am flagging the reader to explain it better than I.

Malachi 3:3 says: "He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver."

This verse puzzled some women in a Bible study and they wondered what this statement meant about the character and nature of God. One of the women offered to find out the process of refining silver and get back to the group at their next Bible Study.

That week, the woman called a silversmith and made an appointment to watch him at work. She didn't mention anything about the reason for her interest beyond her curiosity about the process of refining silver.

As she watched the silversmith, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest as to burn away all the impurities.

The woman thought about God holding us in such a hot spot then she thought again about the verse that says: "He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver." She asked the silversmith if it was true that he had to sit there in front of the fire the whole time the silver was being refined.

The man answered that yes, he not only had to sit there holding the silver, but he had to keep his eyes on the silver the entire time it was in the fire. If the silver was left a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed.

The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, "How do you know when the silver is fully refined?" He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's easy - when I see my image in it."

34 posted on 09/15/2002 7:49:02 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
I'll provide a simple testimony regarding old sin nature.

I can find myself having repented my sins, desiring to remain holy and faithful to Him in ALL things, even in fasting and prayer, and yet out of the blue I find myself allowing even a minutia of an enormous sin into myself.

I can even repeat this effort and find the sin to reeappear, perhaps as another type of sin.

And what if I am successful at resisting sin over a period of practice? Am I then to claim I have become more holy because of my own good works or efforts in practice? We are not saved by our works lest any man should boast, yet I still am cognizant that after a period of being holy, I will find myself to have sinned again.

The best way I can describe my predicament is that even though I have placed faith in Him, and struggle to resist temptation successfully, I still bumble onto cognition that I later have sinned.

Trutfully, I must admit, that my character might indeed seek to remain in Him, yet I still possess a character, quite discernable from Christ, wherein I have some sort of tendancy to sin, or if you will, a nature. A nature to sin is a very nice concise manner to describe this miserable predicament I find myself. I grant that my only salvation from that predicament is first through my Lord and Savior Christ, Jesus, and secondly I look forward to that day when our hearts and minds are rewritten to follow His will.

In a nutshell, I'm not offended when the old sin nature is mentioned, because I've found the observation to be very true. Only through Him by His plan are we able to resist the temptation completely, by His will.

35 posted on 09/15/2002 8:26:06 AM PDT by Cvengr
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To: MarMema; drstevej
Yes in that we were made in God's image. We suffer from the consequences of the division incurred as a result of original sin, but we do not bear the guilt.

Ahhhh but are we ??? Something VERY serious happened it Eden..it was not a bump in the road...Adam was created in the image of God...but what does scripture say of us??

Gen 5:3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Notice the children of Adam (us) were made not after the image of the Father from that day forward we were after the image of man .

Man had fallen..man had lost his innocence, man was seperated from God and unable to do ANYTHING pleasing to God ...and so scripture asks us

Job 14:4   Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one.

David knew

  Psa 51:5   Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Look to see Adams reaction to God after he sinned...

    Gen 3:8   And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
     Gen 3:9   And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?
     Gen 3:10   And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.

Adam ,that had walked with God in the garden..that had PERFECT fellowship with Him now hid from God...Man has hid from God from that time forward.....man is out of relationship with God..that is the effect of the original sin.

All men now run from God, men love sin and run from God

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    Rom 3:12   They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Jesus put it very plainly

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If it were not so..if we did not need to have that relationship restored we would not have needed a savior

....Christ had to come to reconcile us back to the Father...we needed to be born again ,we needed a new heart ..

    Eph 2:13   But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
     Eph 2:14   For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
     Eph 2:15   Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
     Eph 2:16   And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
     Eph 2:17   And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.   
  Eph 2:18   For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
     Eph 2:19   Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

36 posted on 09/15/2002 11:03:49 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: MarMema
I love that story too Mar..But steel can never make itself silver for the silversmith to work with. We need to be changed first ..BEFORE God can or will dwell in us...

  
  1Pe 1:17   And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:
  
  1Pe 1:18   Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
  
  1Pe 1:19   But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
  
  1Pe 1:20   Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
37 posted on 09/15/2002 11:11:30 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej; MarMema; RnMomof7; Itsfreewill
First, the imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity, or to the whole race of men (cf. 1 Cor. 15:21-22). Second, there is the imputation of the sin of the elect to Jesus Christ, who bore that sin's penalty in His death upon the cross (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13). Third, the imputation of the righteousness of God to the elect (cf. Rom. 3:24-26; 4:1-8).

The Theology of God's Three Lies

The word impute means to ascribe or attribute a characteristic or quality to something or someone. If I impute hate to someone, I mean they hate or are hateful. To impute righteousness to someone is to say they are righteous.

[Merriam Webster's Collegiate® Dictionary, 10th Edition

2 : to credit to a person or a cause : ATTRIBUTE ... synonym see ASCRIBE

The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus

Definition 1. to ascribe or attribute to a source or cause.
Crossref. Syn. attribute , accredit , lay , ascribe
Definition 2. to credit or discredit someone with.
Example I don't impute any low motives for his behavior.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

1. To relate to a particular cause or source; attribute the fault or responsibility to: imputed the rocket failure to a faulty gasket; kindly imputed my clumsiness to inexperience. 2. To assign as a characteristic; credit: the gracefulness so often imputed to cats. See synonyms at attribute.]

The word impute, with one exception, is never used to ascribe what is not true to someone or something. The one exception is when one imputes something to someone in an attempt to impune their motives or integrity. Not even the theologians would attribute this use of the word to God. When God imputes something to someone, it is true, if it were not, it would be a lie.

But theologians have made God a liar, not once, but three times. First they accuse God of imputing one person's sin to someone else. God hates this very idea, and condemns those who make this kind of false imputation themselves and condemns those who accuse God of this heinous lie.

Eze 18:2-32 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. ... Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? [Adam] When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. ... Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. ... Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Not content to simply accuse God of lying and attributing the sin of Adam to all men, they argue with God that since sin is the cause of death and all die, it must be because they are guilty of Adam's sin. But God plainly says, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." As if this were not clear enough, it is made clear, that though death came into the world through Adam as a result of his sin, every man, nevertheless, dies because they are guilty of their own sin, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." ( Ro 5:12 )

The second lie the theologians accuse God of is attributing sin to Christ. There is not one verse of Scripture that says God ever imputed, that is, attributed sin to Christ. Everywhere, always, God only attriubutes sinless perfection to Christ. In the one verse that is used to imply sin was imputed to Christ, it clearly indicates sin is not imputed to Him, but that he suffered the same consequences a sinner would suffer, just as if sin were imputed to him, but, the verse emphasizes, He knew no sin, by imputation or in any other way. "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Co 5:20-21)

The very language of this verse indicates the rhetorical nature of the phrase, "he hath made him to be sin," for no one believes Jesus was turned into sin the way the frog was turned into a prince. If we take it "literally" that is what it would have to mean. But no one takes it literally, not even those theologians who attempt to use this verse to indicate God imputed man's sin to Christ.

The verse means the very same thing as, "all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all," ( Isa. 53:6 ) and "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." (1 Pet. 2:24) Again the metaphorical meaning is obvious. Sins are not things, they do not have weight. What Jesus bore was the penalty of the sins we should have borne, and would have borne, except that, "in due time, Christ died for" us.

At this point we must remind ourselves what imputation means. It means ascribing something to someone. It means to say a certain thing is true of someone. It NEVER means to say something is true of someone, which really isn't true. Since we know Jesus knew no sin, if God imputed sin to Jesus, He would have been saying, Jesus is a sinner, which we know is not true.

Finally, the theologians accuse God of lying about righteousness. Specifically, they say God imputes Christ's righteousness to sinners. There is not a single verse of Scripture that says Christ's righteousness has been attributed or imputed to anyone else. Not only would this violate the principle which God has already so eloquently outlined in Ezekiel 18, but would be a lie. God never calls that which is not righteous as though it were righteous.

Notice, it says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." It does not say that we might be made as "if righteous."

The Bible definitely says that God imputes righteousness, but it never says that God imputes Christ's righteousness to anyone. The words impute, imputed, imputing, appear in the New Testament a total of nine times. It will only take a moment to examine those examples to determine exactly what God does impute.

Ro 4:5-8 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Ro 4:9-11 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Ro 4:19-25 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Jas 2:21-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Two more things must be said about these false teachings regarding imputation. This phrase in Rom. 4:9 "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness," and this one in James 2:23, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness," are both treated by the theologians as though they meant, "faith was reckoned to Abraham as though it were righteousness," and "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness even though it wasn't.

God never calls that righteousness which is not righteousness, and God never calls that sin which is not sin, which is flatly condemned in Scripture. Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

If God reckons faith for righteousness it is not "as if" it were righteousness. God reckons faith to be righteousness, because it is righteousness.

Finally, the theologian's use of the word impute is a complete misuse of the word. No aspect or quality of one person is ever imputed to another. There is no such use of this word anywhere, especially in Scripture. The theologians use this word to imply some kind of transfer of sin or righteousness from one person to another. The word impute is never used in this way. There is no way to use this word to imply a transfer of anything, and can never have this meaning.

The so-called, "doctrine of imputation," is an entirely man-made doctrine that accuses God of injustice, contradicts the Word of God, and insults the intelligence of just men. There is no more a "doctine of imputation" than there is a, "doctrine of abhorrence," because the word abhor is used in the Bible, or a "doctrine of rememberence," because various forms of the word remember are used in the Bible. The words impute, reckon, call, and find, for example, all mean the same thing when used to indicate the attributing of a quality or characteristic to someone, and nothing more.

Hank

38 posted on 09/15/2002 11:27:34 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief
Louw Nida


log°zomai a. reason about b. keep mental record c. hold a view d. charge to account

====

HANK: The very language of this verse indicates the rhetorical nature of the phrase, "he hath made him to be sin," for no one believes Jesus was turned into sin the way the frog was turned into a prince. If we take it "literally" that is what it would have to mean. But no one takes it literally, not even those theologians who attempt to use this verse to indicate God imputed man's sin to Christ.

Drstevej: God literally charges our sin to Jesus who bears the legal penalty. God literally charges the righteousness of Christ to us which alone meets God's standard.

Hank are you or anyone righteous enough (apart from any imputed righteousness) to meet God's standard?

39 posted on 09/15/2002 11:55:15 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: zadok
First of all, "sinfulness" and "righteousness" cannot be ascribed to things like substances or natures. Sin and righteousness pertain only to actions (including thought) which are consciousnly chosen.

Yes Jesus had a different nature than Adam.

I did not ask about the relationship of Jesus nature to Adam's because it is problematic. Adam could have had two different natures according to Calvinists and other Augustinians, before and after the fall.

Jesus was fully man, and also fully God.

Amen!

Adam was fully man, but not God at all.

Ah, well, yeah, but, what's the point?

Jesus did not sin, nor did He have sin in His heart.

I see you missed the entire point of my question.

The question is only about Jesus Human nature (you did say "Jesus was fully man, and also fully God.") My question is about the "fully man," aspect only. Was Jesus human nature different than any other man's human nature, such as Paul's, or the writer of Hebrews, or yours, or mine?

Hank

40 posted on 09/15/2002 11:55:44 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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