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Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM
Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

Posted on 09/12/2002 7:19:20 AM PDT by xzins


CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

.

Charles

Haddon

Spurgeon's

VIEW OF THE

MILLENNIUM

 Annotated Summary by  

MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial"yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.

 

"Our Hope is the Personal

PRE-MILLENNIAL

RETURN of the

  Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."

August 1891, age 58  

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

.

Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

$3 + $1 shipping Published by Pilgrim Publications

also Read C. H. SPURGEON on "PRETERISM" <<< Click Link

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NOTES OF INTEREST

Watching and Waiting Magazine

                                          by C. W. H. Griffiths

Published by Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony

1 Donald Way, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 9JB United Kingdom

Stephen A. Toms, secretary

Write and Request the Complete Article            

From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below

Spurgeon (age 43) There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He that same Jesus who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: amillennialism; burnservetus; calburnbibles; calvinism; falsedoctrine; heritics; millenium; postmillennialism; premillennialism
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To: xzins
Excellent post!
1,081 posted on 09/19/2002 1:17:58 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: jude24
I've been arguing, and still do, that to some extant, we all still do. YOu and I believe in the Trinity -- that could be (and has been)called a Catholic doctrine. The question should not be "Who else holds this?" but rather, "Is this Scriptural?"

We share a creed. We have our creedal roots in the apostolic age .We can agree on the trinity and the virgin birth..but once we get beyond that it gets "touchy"

1,082 posted on 09/19/2002 1:23:19 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: nate4one
I will pray for Adam Nate...let me know how he does
1,083 posted on 09/19/2002 1:24:33 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: jude24
Campus Crusade for Christ

My roommate last year calls you guys "The Competition." Which you are, in a sense...he and I were and are affiliated with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. ;)

1,084 posted on 09/19/2002 1:29:08 PM PDT by The Grammarian
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To: the_doc
I will continue to say premillennialism is discovered to be a highly popular position only at the two "ends" of the present age--i.e., when the Church was immature and when the professing Church won't endure sound doctrine anyway.

If Satan is bound how can the deception of the nations happen that this false doctrine can develop doc??

How did all the Mary stuff and prayer to saints develop in the Gentile church?How do you know YOU are not the one deceived?

1,085 posted on 09/19/2002 1:30:18 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: ksen; the_doc
Hey ksen, had doc said anything about your take on Petter 2-3? He has not on mine, hey whats "up doc."

BigMack

1,086 posted on 09/19/2002 1:34:31 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: The Grammarian
My roommate last year calls you guys "The Competition."

We have a very good working relationship with the IV group here. We work together with them a fair amount. There is little real difference, except that we're a whole lot bigger, and thus do a lot more.

1,087 posted on 09/19/2002 1:35:48 PM PDT by jude24
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To: ksen; Jean Chauvin; xzins; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; nobdysfool; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Thanks for a thoughtful response.

And I agree that it's interesting that premillennialism dates all the way back to the apostolic period! (I just happen to think it's rather funny in an awful way [Psalm 2:4])

***

Genesis 3:16b was seriously misunderstood for literally thousands of years--despite the fact that the same Hebrew language in the very next chapter (Genesis 4:7) completely explains what 3:16b means when it says "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Genesis 3:16b is a pretty important verse, and yet it has been misunderstood for essentially the entirety of Judeo-Christian history!

And to underscore (perhaps) the fact of a God-ordained Satanic joke associated with our uncanny confusion, the Lord honored a female scholar at Westminster Theological Seminary by letting her be the one who noticed, in about 1968 or so, the incredibly obvious and important parallel with Genesis 4:7 (Susan Foh, author of Women and the Word of God).

***

BTW, as a Baptist, I also think it's interesting that paedobaptism dates back about as far as we can trace these things. But this means nothing to a Baptist--whether in mode or candidacy. (Believers-only immersion goes all the way back, too!) And I think my Reformed paedobaptist friends respect that in principle.

In short, the Reformed approach is to look carefully at the Scriptures to establish doctrine. We have to resist temptations to be lazy, temptations to trust opinions, temptations to buy into bad arguments.

And this is not easy. Some people are not any good at it at all. They are too emotional and too lazy in the way they handle the very real difficulties in Scripture. (They are carnally cranky! They will believe only what they already believe--even if what they already believe is wrong.)

1,088 posted on 09/19/2002 1:35:53 PM PDT by the_doc
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To: jude24
Right!
1,089 posted on 09/19/2002 1:37:26 PM PDT by the_doc
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To: RnMomof7; jude24; ksen; Jean Chauvin; xzins; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; nobdysfool; ...
If Satan is bound how can the deception of the nations happen that this false doctrine can develop doc??

How did all the Mary stuff and prayer to saints develop in the Gentile church?How do you know YOU are not the one deceived?

I will explain it again later. Please be as patient as I am.

It's an order of magnitude simpler than you have noticed. But it will take a while to lay it out for someone who is not at all receptive (grin).

1,090 posted on 09/19/2002 1:43:27 PM PDT by the_doc
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To: the_doc; ksen; kjam22; RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration
BTW, as a Baptist, I also think it's interesting that paedobaptism dates back about as far as we can trace these things. But this means nothing to a Baptist--whether in mode or candidacy. (Believers-only immersion goes all the way back, too!) And I think my Reformed paedobaptist friends respect that in principle.

Apples and oranges, doc.

Paedobaptism goes back to the ante-nicene period, but it doesn't appear ANYWHERE in scripture. (Some say it appears covertly, but even that says it doesn't appear.)

Pre-millennialism is the logical, literal understanding of Revelation 20. It isn't just OVERTLY mentioned in scripture, it is the topic of its own section of scripture. The restoration of the kingdom is a natural reading of the Old Testament.

Premil is the historic position of Christianity. Blindness would be a good reason for missing that -- unless you had a bible in braille, of course.

1,091 posted on 09/19/2002 1:48:37 PM PDT by xzins
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
You got mail.
1,092 posted on 09/19/2002 1:51:38 PM PDT by ksen
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To: RnMomof7
RN: If Satan is bound how can the deception of the nations happen that this false doctrine can develop doc??

=====

"You call this bound? You got to be kiddin'!"

1,093 posted on 09/19/2002 1:56:02 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins; jude24; ksen; Jean Chauvin; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; nobdysfool; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
The restoration of the kingdom is a natural reading of the Old Testament.

Ah, but this also sets up a lovely argument to the effect that your interpretation just amounts to an even more natural misreading of the Old Testament.

Psalm 2:4.

1,094 posted on 09/19/2002 1:59:36 PM PDT by the_doc
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To: drstevej
Evidently chains are even less effective on a spiritual beings. I bet Satan could make short work of Harry's escape records.

Though I'm surprised that none of the wrong group has brought up the idea that if the Lord says that a physical chain will bind a spiritual being that should be the end of the discussion. At least that would be a better argument that what I've seen so far....
1,095 posted on 09/19/2002 2:09:43 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: RnMomof7; xzins; fortheDeclaration; All
They did a flush of his shunt non-surgically this time. If it does not go down by tomorrow, they will operate. So hopefully it will go down for good tonight.
Thanks for the prayers
1,096 posted on 09/19/2002 2:11:31 PM PDT by nate4one
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To: nate4one
Amen! We will keep it up!
1,097 posted on 09/19/2002 2:13:28 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: jude24
We have a very good working relationship with the IV group here. We work together with them a fair amount. There is little real difference, except that we're a whole lot bigger, and thus do a lot more.

Yeah, we work together with Crusade on-campus some, too. And you guys are probably four times bigger too--at least here; nation-wide, IVCF is actually the larger (funny how low a profile we keep for the size difference, too). My roommate always refers to you as "The Competition" in jest, of course (just to clarify).

1,098 posted on 09/19/2002 2:13:47 PM PDT by The Grammarian
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To: CCWoody
Neither!

Then it appears our hope is the same, however as far as the New Jerusalem, we also agree, you just cannot Biblically show me how consistantly because it is impossible to have the New Jerusalem NOW, unless Christ has returned and the resurrection of those in Hades has happened. (Rev 20)
1,099 posted on 09/19/2002 2:14:14 PM PDT by nate4one
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To: the_doc; RnMomof7; jude24; ksen; Jean Chauvin; xzins; nobdysfool; Dr. Eckleburg; maestro; ...
Listen up premills, this is what the amills are doing, it totally refutes the amillennialist's position and kills it, and then we can move on to another subject!

No applause please. :)

The core is found in Revelation chapter 20 where it speaks of a 1000 year time period. This is clearly a literal 1000 year time period. We will see that the 1000 years is even repeated several times in Revelation 20 so there can be no mistake about it. However, the amillennialist takes that literal 1000 year time period and then spiritualizes it. Next, all references to the 1000 year time period are ignored because they are considered to be a spiritual application and not a literal one. The whole amillennial doctrine hangs on this one chapter in Revelation. If the 1000 years are a literal time period then amillennialism is dead. It is then proven to be a false and incorrect view of prophecy. In this I will show how it does not make any sense if you try to spiritualize the 1000 years. We'll start by looking closer at Revelation 20.

REVELATION CHAPTER 20

In this section we will look closer at Revelation chapter 20. The verses that talk about the 1000 year period will be highlighted and explained. Later we will look at how the amillennialist spiritualizes this literal time period.

Revelation 20 1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Notice that the devil is taken and bound for 1000 years. All this happens at Armageddon when Jesus will return physically to earth at the mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the THOUSAND years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The devil will be bound for 1000 years. Also notice during that time there will be 'nations' on earth. This will occur during the Millennial reign of Christ. Near the end of the 1000 year period the devil will be released for a short time.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a THOUSAND years.

When Jesus rules on earth ... so will His people. They will rule with the Lord Jesus Christ during the Millennium. Again another reference to the 1000 year period. (pretty clear isn't it!) The Bible is talking about a literal 1000 year time period.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the THOUSAND years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

The lost have to wait for 1000 years. At the end of that time they will be judged at the White Throne judgment and thrown in to hell (the lake of fire). (see verse 11)

6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a THOUSAND years.

Another reference to the 1000 year period....and those who will reign with the Lord Jesus for 1000 years.

7 And when the THOUSAND years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Another reference to the 1000 year period. Do you think God is trying to make a point by referring to the 1000 year reign of Christ again and again? The Bible is not dealing with a figure of speech here. No the 1000 years means 1000 literal years!

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The rebellion at the end of the 1000 year period is short and God deals quickly with it.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So we have the devil bound for 1000 years...and then he is released a short time....and then he is thrown into the lake of fire. The false prophet and the antichrist have already been in the lake of fire during that 1000 year period.

Just by reading the above from Revelation 20 we can see that the word THOUSAND means a literal 1000 years. There is no other logical alternative!

WHAT DOES THE AMILLENNIALIST DO?

So what does the amillennialist do with all the clear references to the 1000 year period found in Revelation 20? The answer is simple. Those verses are ignored as they have been all spiritualized into some non-earthly type of meaning.

How does the amillennialist spiritualize the literal 1000 year period found again and again in Revelation 20? Well, they do it by a process of 'word redefinition'. How does this work? It is really quite simple. Just redefine one of the words to mean something other than what it means and then the whole meaning of Revelation 20 changes. Next question, which word does the amillennialist redefine? Have a look at the following Scripture to see the redefined word:

Psalms 50:10 10 For every beast of the forest [is] mine, [and] the cattle upon a thousand hills.

The answer to the question, is that the word the amillennialist redefines is the word: thousand. They redefine that word by using the Scripture at Psalms 50:10. If you read that verse in context, I would agree that it is not talking about a literal 1000 hills. Instead the word thousand stands for ALL hills. On that point I would agree with the amillennialist. However, they do not stop there. Because of this verse the word 'thousand' does not mean 1000 anymore (to them). Instead it means 'everywhere' or 'all' just as it does in Psalm 50:10. This is what the amillennialist does. They take their redefined word: thousand, and apply it in Revelation chapter 20. This is how they can say there is no literal 1000 year kingdom. You see the word 1000 does not mean a literal 1000 to the amillennialist. Instead they put in the word 'thousand' as it applies to Psalms 50:10 into Revelation chapter 20.

This is pretty crazy isn't it! I look at the above and just shake my head. Can people really be that blind? The amillennialist is stating that because the verse in Psalms uses 'cattle on a thousand hills', the word 'thousand' may be redefined to mean something else. Because of that verse they redefine the use of one thousand (999 + 1) to mean something other than what it really means. I would agree that the above verse in Psalm 50:10 is indication ALL hills but I get that from the CONTEXT in how it is used. However I would never be so crazy to take that verse and apply it to the book of Revelation which clearly uses thousand to mean 999 + 1. But that is what the amillennialist does! Lets look closely because this demonstrates the concept of word redefinition that is used by the amillennialist. Ultimately, it totally refutes the amillennialist's position!

Here is the next question. Is the amillennialist consistent with word redefinition of the word 'thousand'? The answer is no. The redefinition is not used everywhere the word 'thousand' occurs, but just where it is needed to 'prove' the amillennialist's warped doctrine. What we have here is Scripture twisting and outright deception. You see the amillennialist needs to get rid of the 1000 year literal time period found in Revelation chapter 20. If Revelation 20 cannot be nullified then amillennialism is dead. However, by word redefinition and by using Psalms 50:10 they accomplish that goal. They literally nullify Scripture so it can be ignored. However, if they are wrong (which they are) then the whole amillennial doctrine comes falling down and is exposed for the false teaching that it really is. This is the case!

The amillennialist is not consistent with word redefinition as previously mentioned. What they actually do is only redefine the word 'thousand' in places where it suits their doctrinal beliefs. It is amazing how the amillennialist twists Scripture to force it into their pet false doctrine. Why do they only redefine the word 'thousand' in the book of Revelation? Why not do it in other places in the Bible? They could at least be consistent and redefine the word 'thousand' in every occurrence in Scripture! But, as shown, the amillennialist is not being consistent.

To illustrate this point, lets look at another Scripture that uses the word 'THOUSAND' and see if the word redefinition works here.

Genesis 20:16 16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a THOUSAND [pieces] of silver: behold, he [is] to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that [are] with thee, and with all [other]: thus she was reproved.

Should the meaning of 'thousand' be redefined in the above verse? Would it make sense to say that 1000 pieces of silver were NOT given but rather ALL silver.... The 'silver on a thousand hills' ... Do you get my drift! Why doesn't the amillennialist be consistent and use his redefined word everywhere the word 'thousand' occurs in the Bible. They don't because they only need to use word redefinition in Revelation 20. This is where the Scriptures contradict their false doctrine of amillennialism. Genesis 20:16 does not refute amillennialism so it is left alone. Revelation chapter 20 disproves amillennialism so it must be 'dealt' with. This is very sad.

Here is another verse that uses the word 'thousand'. Lets see if word redefinition works here:

Exodus 32:28 28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three THOUSAND men.

Should the redefined meaning for the word 'thousand' be used here also. Would it make sense if we interpreted the above verse to mean 'all men' or the 'men on a thousand hills'? It wouldn't make sense to me. I think three thousand means three thousand! It also makes perfect sense that Revelation chapter 20 is referring to a literal 1000 year period and not some 'spiritual symbolic' thing like the amillennialist would have you to believe.

I have a saying that I made up about people who twist Scripture and turn literal things in Scriptures into spiritual things: 'They spiritualize the literal which makes them oblivious to the obvious!' What a dangerous thing to do!

I hope my examples show that the concept of word redefinition is quit deceptive and dangerous. The word 'thousand' cannot be redefined in Revelation chapter 20 to mean something other than 999 + 1. However, against all reason the amillennialist has done such a thing. Please re-read the above if you don't understand the concept of word redefinition and do not let yourself be caught in such a demonic trap.

I have shown that one verse can not be used to to redefine a word used in another verse. We have also showed how inconsistent the amillennialist is with word redefinition. Only the verses in Revelation 20 that prove amillennialism wrong are redefined. Other verses that use the same word are not redefined.

What should be done? Show this information to an amillennialist and let him have a chance to make up his own mind. Will he continue to incorrectly divide the Word of God just to justify an incorrect doctrine? One day the answer to that will be given before the throne of God. That is something to think about!

I heard someone try to argue that Revelation chapter 20 cannot be literal because the chain used to bind the devil cannot be a literal chain. This is really crazy reasoning. Do you really thing God will go to a hardware store to get some kind of chain to bind the devil? This is very common amillennial reasoning. Revelation chapter 20 refutes the position so it must be made non-literal sripture so it could then be ignored. When we get to heaven there will be streets of gold, mansions, the throne of God, saints, and angels. Doesn't it make sense to say that things in heaven will not like they are here? I don't know what kind of chain will be used to chain up the devil but I'm sure God has something in existence that will do the trick. The devil will certainly be bound and Revelation chapter 20 is very literal Scripture!

BigMack

1,100 posted on 09/19/2002 2:15:30 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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