An Overview of Eastern Orthodoxy

International School of Theology ^ | July 13 2002 | Susan Moeller, non-Orthodox

[MarMema]

A New Covenant

Yes, these are words used by us as well. And it is my understanding that the partaking of bread and wine is symbolic of this.

However, I would think, again from my limited time as an EO, that it is Grace we hope for and the mystical communion with Christ. Everything centers around theosis, and communing is one of the ways we get help with that.

And finally, for us, the Eucharist is a way to become united spiritually with not only Christ, but also the other church members present. The sobornost .

These are just my understandings and I welcome correction from others with stronger understanding than my own.

[MarMema]

You might be interested, actually, in checking out the link I posted above. I think it is fascinating to see what the (deeply spiritual) Russians are doing with the RC church. It may turn out to be an extreme irony if the Russians manage to preserve much of what you and many mourn.

That's not to say we don't want Russia to remain primarily Orthodox, of course. :-)

[RnMomof7]

Yes..bread and grape juice (Protestant tradition)..Children may commune when they have an understanding and acceptance of the Gospel ( it is not a set age..the parents in most cases make the decision)...I believe it is different in the Orthodox Presbyterian church ...I have flagged OP, I do not know about communion in the Dutch Reform eithor..so I flagged JC

[Siobhan]

Thank you very much, Mar Mema. That is well written and very informative. Who wrote it? Is it from a book on the Orthodox Church or from a pamphlet or website? Again, many thanks to you for such excellent and clear material.

[MarMema]

It's from www.oca.org, under doctrine and then sacraments, I think. Orthodox Church of America.

[peter the great]

There is not much for me to add here there is another web site www.Orthodox News.com that will link you with Churches and articles and hopefully put you on your way to answering any question that you may have about Orthodoxy.

[The_Reader_David]

Calvin's Eucharistic theology is closer to Orthodox Eucharistic theology than it is to the Eucharistic theology of most Calvinists I've met. Most who call themselves Calvinists are Zwinglians in regard to the Eucharist: the Eucharist is mere symbol, a rememberance and nothing more. It is clear that Calvin believed it is more, though whether his doctrine was some sort of "Real Presence" doctrine or a symbolic doctrine with symbol understood in a Semitic senses where symbols participate in the reality they symbolize rather than the usual Western rationalistic sense in which symbols are mere signifiers is unclear to me.

[RnMomof7]

I am not too sure that is true of all calvinists it might be denomination specific..that is why I asked input for the Orthodox Calvinists..I will try again..( remember alot of the Calvinists here on FR are Baptists..so they carry some Baptist doctrine too...the Orthodox Calvinists baptize babies etc...very different than the reformed Baptists)

[SoothingDave]

Thanks for the bump.

SD

[RnMomof7]

No one responed so I found this. It sounds closer to the EO position than to the Baptists:>)





Protestant view differs. Within Protestant denominations, some believe Jesus is present in the Communion event, but not in the sense that the bread and wine literally are changed.

The Rev. W. Eugene March, a professor at Louisville Presbyterian Seminary, said Presbyterian teaching espouses the view of John Calvin, a 16th-century Reformation leader, called real presence.

"The real presence is an insistence there's really something happening here, that Christ is truly present," he said. "But not in the sense of transubstantiation." March spent 15 years as a representative for the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the nation's largest Presbyterian denomination, in talks with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the country's largest Lutheran group, on forging closer ties.

A major sticking point, he said, was differing views of Communion. Presbyterians celebrate Communion on a table, not an altar, because it is not viewed as a sacrificial event, he said. While they do not believe the taking of Communion is essential to salvation, it plays an important role in the faith.






"To participate in this meal is to be drawn nearer to Christ," March said. "It is to self-consciously put oneself in touch with the real presence and to reflect more seriously on who Jesus is, what he has done and what that means for our lives." Despite the official teaching, he said, Presbyterians in the pews likely have varied views about Communion. The same can be said of Lutherans, said Baird Tipson, president of Wittenberg University in Springfield and a scholar of Christian history.

[The_Reader_David]

Interestingly, in Orthodox usage, the surface on which the chalice and diskos (paten) rest when the Holy Mysteries are celebrated is called the Holy Table. The altar is the entire region of the temple beyond the iconostasis.

[RnMomof7]

That is interesting...I do think Table is a better term ..but to be honest I had never considered it before

Is the sacred area called "the Temple"? I did not know that ...

I had a very special night at a Serbian Orthodox Church last year when Wordsmith got me to go to a service. I went to vespers. It was beautiful

Have you seen "My Great Big Fat Greek Wedding"?(I think that is what it is called) It is worth it..very heartwarming...

It is a bit of an attempt to make the family look "foolish" at points..but it shows a stong sense of community and family

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I am not too sure that is true of all calvinists it might be denomination specific..that is why I asked input for the Orthodox Calvinists..I will try again..( remember alot of the Calvinists here on FR are Baptists..so they carry some Baptist doctrine too...the Orthodox Calvinists baptize babies etc...very different than the reformed Baptists)

Broadly speaking, Calvinist Baptists tend towards Zwingli's view ("Symbolic Remembrance") whereas Calvinist Presbyterians tend towards Calvin's view ("Spiritual Presence").

• Regarding Calvinist Baptists -- This is not to say that "Baptists are Zwinglian" in their Eucharistic theology, however... it would be more correct to say that Zwingli was Baptistic in his Eucharistic theology. Unfortunately, some medieval Swiss Baptists interpreted this to mean that Zwingli was a "friend" to the Medieval Baptists. Sadly, Zwingli gave the lie to this amicable notion by taking it upon himself to drown quite a few Baptists. Calvin, by contrast, married an (ex)Baptist. (She had renounced her Baptistic theology prior to their marriage... but at least Calvin did not at any time attempt to drown her during their courtship!!)

• Regarding Calvinist Presbyterians -- "Spiritual Presence" is not to be confused with Carnal Presence. Calvinist Presbyterians affirm that Jesus Christ is every bit as present in Spirit at a properly-administered Supper as He was present in Body at the "Last" Supper. As Jesus is bodily present in Heaven at the present time, we look forward to supping with Him again in bodily presence upon His Return.... but we do not affirm that the Elements are composed of the carnal meat of his arterial blood and fleshly organs.

  This is one difficulty I have with the Terminology "Real Presence". Do I affirm that Jesus Christ is Really Present at a properly-conducted Supper? Yes, I affirm indeed that Jesus Christ is Really Present at a properly-conducted Supper!! Do I affirm the carnal presence of his arterial blood and fleshly organs in the constitution of the Elements? No, I affirm that Jesus is really present at the Supper -- in spirit. His Body is even now at the Right Hand of the Father, in Heaven, and by the grace of God I will sup with Him in body upon His Return.

[newberger]

First, let me say that this is the first time I've posted since last Spring! This thread is amazing. Orthodox, Catholics, Calvinists, and others talking civily and starting to understand each other.

I think it's wonderful.

Now as to the subject at hand. I think we are drifting into some confusion but for a very understandable reason. We are trying to fit the Eastern view of the Eucharist into a Western framework like this:

ZWINGLIANS <- - - - Lutherans - - - Calvinists - - -> Roman Catholics

Maybe I should switch Lutherans and Calvinists but you get the idea. It seems logical to sort things according to how literally one understands "this is My Body" and "Presence".

The problem is that we Orthodox don't do it that way. My Roman Catholic friends, because of the work of Thomas Aquinas, have it all figured out in trems of Aristotelian< philosophical terms like essence and accidents. And Zwinglians / Evangelicals are confortable with "mere" symbols.

In the Eastern Church, we are much more comfortable with Mystery. We don't define how the bread and Cup are the Body and Blood of Christ, we just affirm that they are.
Not because the topic is unimportant but because the Eucharist is beyond our ability to grasp with our finite minds.

That's one reason why we practice infant communion. If we wait til a person understands no one will ever partake!

So we don't say that the bread stays bread.

And we don't say that it looks like bread but isn't.

To quote the Divine Liturgy:

1. After the consecration, the priest prays "And make this Bread the precious Body of Thy Christ. And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ. Amen. Making the change by Thy
Holy Spirit.

2. Just before receiving the Body and Blood, we all pray together "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own most pure Body and this is truly Thine own precious Blood . . .".

Notice that the word "truly" occurs three times in that prayer. Just as the Lord Jesus is truly the Christ, so also the Bread is truly His Body and the Cup is truly His Blood.

How, I don't know! But it is!

Newberger

[Siobhan]

Thank you both for the links.

[Siobhan]

Your post was really helpful. Thank you. I have found this thread inspiring.

[Siobhan]

I have been to vespers at the Ukrainian Orthodox church and was deeply moved by the sheer sense of awe, reverence, and holiness. Interestingly, I remember having a very similar feeling after attending the French-language evening worship at the Huguenot Church in Charleston, South Carolina.

[Siobhan]

What awesome words! The kind of words that make you tremble before the beauty and holiness of the most Holy Trinity.

[RnMomof7]

Thanks for answering OP...I thought that the Orthodox Calvinists held Calvins doctrinal stand on a Spiritual Presence in communion...but I did not want to speak for all of you..

[RnMomof7]

Thank you for posting. I have over the last year come to a real appreciation of the EO faith. It is nice to read and learn the way other churches see things .

I was surprised how similar the Eastern Orthodox was with the Orthodox Calvinists on this topic..