To: RnMomof7
Calvin's Eucharistic theology is closer to Orthodox Eucharistic theology than it is to the Eucharistic theology of most Calvinists I've met. Most who call themselves Calvinists are Zwinglians in regard to the Eucharist: the Eucharist is mere symbol, a rememberance and nothing more. It is clear that Calvin believed it is more, though whether his doctrine was some sort of "Real Presence" doctrine or a symbolic doctrine with symbol understood in a Semitic senses where symbols participate in the reality they symbolize rather than the usual Western rationalistic sense in which symbols are mere signifiers is unclear to me.
To: The_Reader_David; Jean Chauvin; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I am not too sure that is true of all calvinists it might be denomination specific..that is why I asked input for the Orthodox Calvinists..I will try again..( remember alot of the Calvinists here on FR are Baptists..so they carry some Baptist doctrine too...the Orthodox Calvinists baptize babies etc...very different than the reformed Baptists)
28 posted on
09/09/2002 8:03:16 AM PDT by
RnMomof7
To: The_Reader_David
No one responed so I found this. It sounds closer to the EO position than to the Baptists:>)
Protestant view differs. Within Protestant denominations, some believe Jesus is present in the Communion event, but not in the sense that the bread and wine literally are changed.
The Rev. W. Eugene March, a professor at Louisville Presbyterian Seminary, said Presbyterian teaching espouses the view of John Calvin, a 16th-century Reformation leader, called real presence.
"The real presence is an insistence there's really something happening here, that Christ is truly present," he said. "But not in the sense of transubstantiation." March spent 15 years as a representative for the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the nation's largest Presbyterian denomination, in talks with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the country's largest Lutheran group, on forging closer ties.
A major sticking point, he said, was differing views of Communion. Presbyterians celebrate Communion on a table, not an altar, because it is not viewed as a sacrificial event, he said. While they do not believe the taking of Communion is essential to salvation, it plays an important role in the faith.
"To participate in this meal is to be drawn nearer to Christ," March said. "It is to self-consciously put oneself in touch with the real presence and to reflect more seriously on who Jesus is, what he has done and what that means for our lives." Despite the official teaching, he said, Presbyterians in the pews likely have varied views about Communion. The same can be said of Lutherans, said Baird Tipson, president of Wittenberg University in Springfield and a scholar of Christian history.
30 posted on
09/09/2002 10:30:49 AM PDT by
RnMomof7
To: The_Reader_David; RnMomof7; the_doc
I am not too sure that is true of all calvinists it might be denomination specific..that is why I asked input for the Orthodox Calvinists..I will try again..( remember alot of the Calvinists here on FR are Baptists..so they carry some Baptist doctrine too...the Orthodox Calvinists baptize babies etc...very different than the reformed Baptists)Broadly speaking, Calvinist Baptists tend towards Zwingli's view ("Symbolic Remembrance") whereas Calvinist Presbyterians tend towards Calvin's view ("Spiritual Presence").
- Regarding Calvinist Baptists -- This is not to say that "Baptists are Zwinglian" in their Eucharistic theology, however... it would be more correct to say that Zwingli was Baptistic in his Eucharistic theology. Unfortunately, some medieval Swiss Baptists interpreted this to mean that Zwingli was a "friend" to the Medieval Baptists. Sadly, Zwingli gave the lie to this amicable notion by taking it upon himself to drown quite a few Baptists. Calvin, by contrast, married an (ex)Baptist. (She had renounced her Baptistic theology prior to their marriage... but at least Calvin did not at any time attempt to drown her during their courtship!!)
- Regarding Calvinist Presbyterians -- "Spiritual Presence" is not to be confused with Carnal Presence. Calvinist Presbyterians affirm that Jesus Christ is every bit as present in Spirit at a properly-administered Supper as He was present in Body at the "Last" Supper. As Jesus is bodily present in Heaven at the present time, we look forward to supping with Him again in bodily presence upon His Return.... but we do not affirm that the Elements are composed of the carnal meat of his arterial blood and fleshly organs.
This is one difficulty I have with the Terminology "Real Presence". Do I affirm that Jesus Christ is Really Present at a properly-conducted Supper? Yes, I affirm indeed that Jesus Christ is Really Present at a properly-conducted Supper!! Do I affirm the carnal presence of his arterial blood and fleshly organs in the constitution of the Elements? No, I affirm that Jesus is really present at the Supper -- in spirit. His Body is even now at the Right Hand of the Father, in Heaven, and by the grace of God I will sup with Him in body upon His Return.
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