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To: The_Reader_David
No one responed so I found this. It sounds closer to the EO position than to the Baptists:>)





Protestant view differs. Within Protestant denominations, some believe Jesus is present in the Communion event, but not in the sense that the bread and wine literally are changed.

The Rev. W. Eugene March, a professor at Louisville Presbyterian Seminary, said Presbyterian teaching espouses the view of John Calvin, a 16th-century Reformation leader, called real presence.

"The real presence is an insistence there's really something happening here, that Christ is truly present," he said. "But not in the sense of transubstantiation." March spent 15 years as a representative for the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the nation's largest Presbyterian denomination, in talks with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the country's largest Lutheran group, on forging closer ties.

A major sticking point, he said, was differing views of Communion. Presbyterians celebrate Communion on a table, not an altar, because it is not viewed as a sacrificial event, he said. While they do not believe the taking of Communion is essential to salvation, it plays an important role in the faith.






"To participate in this meal is to be drawn nearer to Christ," March said. "It is to self-consciously put oneself in touch with the real presence and to reflect more seriously on who Jesus is, what he has done and what that means for our lives." Despite the official teaching, he said, Presbyterians in the pews likely have varied views about Communion. The same can be said of Lutherans, said Baird Tipson, president of Wittenberg University in Springfield and a scholar of Christian history.

30 posted on 09/09/2002 10:30:49 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Interestingly, in Orthodox usage, the surface on which the chalice and diskos (paten) rest when the Holy Mysteries are celebrated is called the Holy Table. The altar is the entire region of the temple beyond the iconostasis.
31 posted on 09/09/2002 1:56:41 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: RnMomof7
First, let me say that this is the first time I've posted since last Spring! This thread is amazing. Orthodox, Catholics, Calvinists, and others talking civily and starting to understand each other.

I think it's wonderful.

Now as to the subject at hand. I think we are drifting into some confusion but for a very understandable reason. We are trying to fit the Eastern view of the Eucharist into a Western framework like this:

ZWINGLIANS <- - - - Lutherans - - - Calvinists - - -> Roman Catholics

Maybe I should switch Lutherans and Calvinists but you get the idea. It seems logical to sort things according to how literally one understands "this is My Body" and "Presence".

The problem is that we Orthodox don't do it that way. My Roman Catholic friends, because of the work of Thomas Aquinas, have it all figured out in trems of Aristotelian< philosophical terms like essence and accidents. And Zwinglians / Evangelicals are confortable with "mere" symbols.

In the Eastern Church, we are much more comfortable with Mystery. We don't define how the bread and Cup are the Body and Blood of Christ, we just affirm that they are.
Not because the topic is unimportant but because the Eucharist is beyond our ability to grasp with our finite minds.

That's one reason why we practice infant communion. If we wait til a person understands no one will ever partake!

So we don't say that the bread stays bread.

And we don't say that it looks like bread but isn't.

To quote the Divine Liturgy:

1. After the consecration, the priest prays "And make this Bread the precious Body of Thy Christ. And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ. Amen. Making the change by Thy
Holy Spirit.

2. Just before receiving the Body and Blood, we all pray together "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own most pure Body and this is truly Thine own precious Blood . . .".

Notice that the word "truly" occurs three times in that prayer. Just as the Lord Jesus is truly the Christ, so also the Bread is truly His Body and the Cup is truly His Blood.

How, I don't know! But it is!

Newberger

34 posted on 09/09/2002 9:24:34 PM PDT by newberger
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