Posted on 07/31/2002 12:36:33 PM PDT by JMJ333
One major difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics pray for the dead. As Cardinal Ratzinger said so well, "My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it." Why? "Because few things are as immediate, as human and as widespread - at all times and in all cultures - as prayer for one's own departed dear ones."
Calvin, the Protestant reformer of Geneva, had a woman whipped because she was discovered praying at the grave of her son and hence was guilty, according to Calvin, of "superstition."
"In theory, the Reformation refuses to accept purgatory, and consequently it also rejects prayer for the departed," Cardinal Ratzinger said in "The Ratzinger Report," a book by Vittorio Messori. "In fact, German Lutherans at least have returned to it in practice and have found considerable theological justification for it. Praying for one's departed loved ones is a far too immediate urge to be suppressed; it is a most beautiful manifestation of solidarity, love and assistance, reaching beyond the barrier of death. The happiness or unhappiness of a person dear to me, who has now crossed to the other shore, depends in part on whether I remember or forget him; he does not stop needing my love."
Catholics are not the only ones who pray for the dead. The custom is also a Jewish one, and Catholics traditionally drew upon the Hebrew Bible text of 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, in addition to some New Testament passages, to justify their belief.
Besides the Jews, many ancient peoples also prayed for the deceased. Some societies, such as that of ancient Egypt, were actually "funereal" and built around the practice.
Spanish-speaking Catholics today popularly refer to All Souls Day as El Dia de los Muertos, a relic of the past when the pre-Christian Indians had a Day of the Dead; liturgically, the day is referred to as El Dia de las Animas.
The French Jesuit missionaries in New France in the 17th century easily explained All Souls Day by comparing it to the local Indian Day of the Dead.
Ancestor worship was also well known in China and elsewhere in Asia, and missionaries there in times gone by perhaps had it easier explaining All Souls Day to them, and Christianizing the concept, than they would have to us in the Western world as the 20th century draws to a close.
The urge to pray for the dead is deep in the human spirit, which rebels against the concept of annihilation after death. Although there is some evidence for a Christian liturgical feast akin to our All Souls Day as early as the fourth century, the Church was slow to introduce such an observance because of the persistence, in Europe, of more ancient pagan rituals for the dead. In fact, the Protestant reaction to praying for the dead may be based more on these survivals and a deformed piety from pre-Christian times than on the true Catholic doctrine as expressed by either the Western or the Eastern Church. The doctrine of purgatory, rightly understood as praying for the dead, should never give offense to anyone who professes faith in Christ.
When we discuss All Souls Day, we look at a liturgical commemoration which predated doctrinal formulation itself, since the Church often clarifies only that which is being undermined or threatened. The first clear documentation for this celebration comes from Isidore of Seville (d. 636; the last of the great Western Church Fathers), whose monastic rule includes a liturgy for all the dead on the day after Pentecost.
The date of November 2 for the liturgical commemoration of the faithful departed was set by St. Odilo (962-1049), who was the abbot of Cluny in France. Before that, other dates had been observed around the Christian world, and the Armenians still use Easter Monday for this purpose. He issued a decree that all the monasteries of the congregation of Cluny were annually to keep this feast. On November 1, the bell was to be tolled and afterward the Office of the Dead was to be recited in common, and on the next day all the priests would celebrate Mass for the repose of the souls in purgatory.
The observance of the Benedictines of Cluny was soon adopted by other Benedictines and by the Carthusians. Pope Sylvester in 1003 approved and recommended the practice. Eventually, the parish clergy introduced this liturgical observance, and from the 11th to the 14th century, it spread in France, Germany, England and Spain. Finally, in the 14th century, Rome placed the day of the commemoration of all the faithful departed in the official books of the Western or Latin Church. November 2 was chosen in order that the memory of all the holy spirits, both of the saints in heaven and of the souls in purgatory, should be celebrated in two successive days. In this way the Catholic belief in the Communion of Saints would be expressed.
Since for centuries the Feast of All Saints had already been celebrated on November 1, the memory of the departed souls in purgatory was placed on the following day. All Saints Day goes back to the fourth century, but was finally fixed on November 1 by Pope Gregory in 835. The two feasts bind the saints-to-be with the almost-saints and the already-saints before the resurrection from the dead.
On All Souls Day, can we pray for those in limbo? The notion of limbo is not ancient in the Church, and was a theological extrapolation to provide explanation for cases not included in the heaven-purgatory-hell triad. Limbo does not appear as a thesis to be taught in the new Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church.
In fact, Cardinal Ratzinger was in favor of the notion of limbo being set aside. In "The Ratzinger Report," he said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally - and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as Prefect of the Congregation - I would abandon it since it was only a theological hypothesis. It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism. To put it in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God' (John 3:5). One should not hesitate to give up the idea of limbo, if need be (and it is worth noting that the very theologians who proposed 'limbo' also said that parents could spare the child limbo by desiring its baptism and through prayer); but the concern behind it must not be surrendered. Baptism has never been a side issue for faith; it is not now, nor will it ever be."
The doctrine of purgatory, upon which the liturgy of All Souls rests. is formulated in canons promulgated by the Councils of Florence (1439) and Trent (1545-1563). The truth of the doctrine existed before its clarification, of course, and only historical necessities motivated both councils to pronounce when they did. Acceptance of this doctrine still remains a required belief of Catholic faith.
What about indulgences? Indulgences from the treasury of grace in the Church are applied to the departed on All Souls Day, as well as on other days, according to the norms of ecclesiastical law. The faithful make use of their intercessory role in prayer to ask the Lord's mercy upon those who have died. Essentially, the practice urges the faithful to take responsibility. This is the opinion of Michael Morrissey in the Dictionary of Catholic Spirituality: "Since the Church has taught that death is not the end of life, then neither is it the end of our relationship with loved ones who have died, who along with the saints make up the Body of Christ in the 'Church Triumphant."' This assumes, of course, that they died in a state of grace and are finished with purification via purgatory.
Morrissey adds that "the diminishing theological interest in indulgences, today is due to an increased emphasis on the sacraments, the prayer life of Catholics and an active engagement in the world as constitutive of the spiritual life. More soberly, perhaps, it is due to an individualistic attitude endemic in modern culture that makes it harder to feel responsibility for, let alone solidarity with, dead relatives and friends."
As with everything Christian, then, All Souls Day has to do with the mystery of charity, that divine love overcomes everything, even death. Bonds of love uniting us creatures, living and dead, and the Lord Who is resurrected, are celebrated both on All Saints Day and on All Souls Day each year.
All who have been baptized into Christ and have chosen Him will continue to live in Him. The grave does not impede progress toward a closer union with Him. It is only this degree of closeness to Him which we consider when we celebrate All Saints one day, and All Souls the next.
Purgatory is a great blessing because it shows those who love God how they failed in love, and heals their ensuing shame. Most of us have neither fulfilled the commandments nor failed to fulfill them. Our very mediocrity shames us. Purgatory fills in the void. We learn finally what to fulfill all of them means. Most of us neither hate nor fail completely in love. Purgatory teaches us what radical love means, when God remakes our failure to love in this world into the perfection of love in the next.
As the sacraments on earth provide us with a process of transformation into Christ, so purgatory continues that process until the likeness to Him is completed. It is all grace. Actively praying for the dead is that holy mitzvah or act of charity on our part which hastens that process. The Church encourages it and does it with special consciousness and in unison on All Souls Day, even though it is always and everywhere salutary to pray for the dead.
You thought a man was named Becky:)
Actually my husband (Big Mack) started posting when we got a WebTV, when I started getting interested inposting we found out that the WebTV would not support two e-mails so we had to share the name.
For a long time we did not let on that two people were posting under the same name, but one morning I got jumped on for something he said the night before, so I cleared the problem up:) It was fun.
As far as the rest of you post I'm not sure I follow.
Becky
In contrast to "religion", Christianity doesn't teach forcibly taking (stealing) from each according to his means and giving it to each according to his needs. But totalitarian Marxist/Socialist/Commie/tyrannical religions DO teach a forced redistribution of wealth, that is for sure. And they use the political power of secular governments to do it if they get the chance.
The voluntary sharing of wealth within individual families, and within individual church organizations, are the only legitimate forms of Socialism in God's eyes.
"Forced giving" is an oxymoron, and is breaking the commandments ("Thou shalt not steal", and "Thou shalt not covet what belongs to another", "Thou shalt love your neighbor as yourself", etc.).
Becky
The Catholics are coming, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!! Hide your bible!! BOO!!!!!
Luther and Calvin had been indoctrinated by, and steeped in Roman catholicism all their lives. De-programming takes time."
ROFLOL!! Please!! This is such a lame excuse. They changed every other thing they could think of. THEY WERE NO BETTER. Both of them established STATE religions. That was the way things were done then. There was no penicillin either or novocaine or heart transplants. It was a different time.
"But God is patient, and as events unfolded, it is clear that he considered it more needful to reform his church back to the origional theological doctrines first."
Did you make this up in your head?
"As long as America's Constitution and Bill of Rights are upheld, we will have nothing to fear from tyrants who falsely teach their "faithful" that the infallible Word of God is a "dangerous" book, and refuses to retract its official denial of religious freedom and what it considers to be its right to use violence to force people to accept its doctrines, just has in the past."
Good because I would not want to live under Calvinism either or under the KKK.
"The only thing that prevents it from enforcing its religion on the world, is absolute political power."
All evil comes from the Catholic Church? Sneer. I am sorry but this deserves derision. It is such a shallow view of history.
"....just like they hate the true God and his infallible Word, the closed canon of Scripture."
Well that was so inspiring. Now let's all go out and burn a cross on someone's lawn. Oh wait, it was the Protestants of the KKK who did that and in America, land of the free! And against Blacks and Jews and Catholics. What was THAT all about? You know when my grandparents first moved to the south in the 20's they did not let it be known that they were Catholics. It was something you just did not broadcast around. They were worried about the KKK. And European Catholics and Jews were herded into shanty towns and ghettos to live in poverty. They were not received well by the WASPS that were there first. How many Catholic president's have we had? ONE! Prejudice? We know he had to assure the public that he would not let the pope run the country. (Such a stupid thing to even consider but that's the fear some backward people had.)
All I am saying is, there is plenty of blame to go around.
Redemption means to be purchased from the slave market of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ. Propitiation means that the sin debt has been satisfied by the blood of Christ. Justification means the believer is declared righteousness by Almighty God because of what Jesus Christ has done for his soul.
BigMack
BigMack
To be honest I do not believe that Tantumergo is on the up and up...That of course is just between us..
WHAT IS THE PRICE OF REDEMPTION? We are redeemed through Christ's blood (Col. 1:14; He. 9:12; 1 Pe. 1:18,19). Those who say the blood of Christ is only symbolic for death are wrong. The blood of the O.T. animal sacrifices was symbolic, typifying the blood of Christ, but the blood was real and was required by the law of God (Le. 17:11; He. 9:22). To change the word "blood" to "death" as some modern versions do is wickedness and is a denial of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
HOW PERMANENT IS REDEMPTION? It is eternal! "...having obtained eternal redemption for us" (He. 9:12).
WHAT DOES REDEMPTION INVOLVE? The term "redemption" is used interchangeably with "salvation." It refers to the fullness of our salvation in Jesus Christ. Redemption involves forgiveness of sins (Ep. 1:7); justification (Ro. 3:24); eternal inheritance (He. 9:15); resurrection (Ro. 8:23).
THREE ASPECTS OF REDEMPTION. (1) Past (Ga. 3:13). We have been redeemed from the condemnation of sin and the dominion of Satan. (2) Present (Tit. 2:14). We are being redeemed from the power of sin and Satan in our daily lives. (3) Future (Ro. 8:23). We shall be redeemed from the very presence of sin when Christ returns and we receive resurrection bodies.
BigMack
Does your dependency on being spoon fed by your supposedly infallible guru extend even to this?
1979 was only the first printing. The second edition was printed in March 1996.
You must have been so distracted by your snorting that you missed some very important points I made earlier. It is only because the Calvinists respect Sola Scriptura so much that they drew up America's founding documents to guarantee that you wouldn't have to live under "Calvinism".
How is a person justified? (1) Justification is free (Ro. 3:24). We do not become righteous before God through good works, religious rituals, morality, law-keeping. It is a free gift. (2) Justification is because of Christ's redemption (Ro. 3:24). Justification is free because Jesus Christ paid the price with His own blood and death. (3) Justification is through faith in Christ (Ro. 3:25-28; 4:3-6; 5:1). Man's part in justification is to repent of his sin and to trust Jesus Christ.
Other important truths about justification: (1) Justification is by imputation, not impartation. Justification is not God making a sinner righteous, but God declaring him righteous. It is true that God gives the believer a righteous nature, which remains in him and causes him to love and serve God, but this is not justification; this is regeneration (2 Co. 5:17). Justification is God imputing to the believing sinner the very righteousness of Jesus Christ (2 Co. 5:21; Ro. 4:4-6). (2) Justification is in Jesus Christ. To have Christ is to have justification (1 Co. 1:30; 2 Co. 5:21). (3) Justification is a present possession, not a process and a possibility (Ro. 5:9). Justification is not a gradual thing whereby a person grows in righteousness. The believer is as fully justified the day he is converted as he is after forty years of spiritual growth. Believers do grow in obedience, but this is not justification; it is sanctification (1 Pe. 2:1-2). (4) Justification promises eternal safety from wrath (Ro. 5:9-11). Since the believer possesses justification through Christ's blood, he does not have to fear ever suffering God's wrath. It is God who declares the believer righteous; thus the danger of wrath and condemnation are forever past for those who are justified by Christ's blood.
Position and Practice. The Bible makes a plain distinction between the Christian's position and his practice. Other terms for this are standing and state, relationship and fellowship, union and communion. The believer's position in Christ is unchanging, secure, and eternal the moment he is born again into God's family. His practice, on the other hand, depends upon his day by day fellowship with Christ and is a fluid condition. Justification has to do with the believer's position before God.
The book of Ephesians lays out this distinction plainly. Chapters one through three present the believer's position and standing; chapters four through six deal with his practice and state, his walk. In Ep. 1-3 the believer is repeatedly said to be "in Christ" (1:1,3,4,6,7,10,11,12,13; 2:6,10,13,22; 3:6,12). This is the theme of this section of the epistle. The key word in Ep. 1-3 is "grace" (1:2,6; 2:5,7,8; 3:2,7). In Ep. 4-6 the subject changes to the believer's walk in this world. The key words in Ep. 4-6 are "walk" (4:1,17; 5:2,8,15), "conversation" (4:22), "put on" (4:24; 6:11), and "obey" (6:1). The pivotal verse is Ep. 4:1--"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called." Here we are told the believer is to bring his daily walk into line with his eternal calling. He does not live right in order TO BE called or in order to perfect his calling, but because he HAS BEEN called. There is a world of difference. To serve God because you have been saved is the Gospel; to serve God in an attempt to attain salvation or to perfect one's salvation is a perversion of the Gospel. Ep. 5:8 says, "For ye were sometimes darkness, but NOW are ye light in the Lord: WALK as children of light." The believer's position in Christ is that he is "light in the Lord." This is a present, eternal reality. He is instructed to live up to that position in his daily life.
The difference between position and practice is also seen in 1 John. Here the Lord makes a plain distinction between relationship and fellowship. The theme of 1 John is "... that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ." The theme is fellowship, not relationship. It is written to those who have already established a relationship with God as children through faith in Christ. The Scriptures teach that a person is placed positionally into the family of God the moment he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. God once for all imputes the righteousness of Christ to the sinner's account, and is forever satisfied (propitiated) in relation to that believer's sin because of the blood and death of Christ. This is where confession of sins enters into the Christian life. Obedience and confession of sins are essential in order to remain in fellowship with the Savior, but our walk in no way affects our position in Christ, or our relationship with God as our Father. If we sin He still remains our Father and Christ remains our Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1). How can this be? It is because He paid the full price demanded by God's law for sin (1 Jn. 2:2), and eternal life is a free gift, totally undeserved and unmerited by man, received by simple faith in Christ alone, and secure upon receipt.
The Gospel of John also shows this distinction plainly. In John 1-12 the focus is on the unsaved, and the message is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Jn. 1:7,12; 3:15-16,18; 4:39; 5:24; 6:35,47; 7:38; 8:24; 9:35; 10:38; 11:26). When the unsaved asked about doing the works of God, Christ replied, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn. 6:29). That is the only work God will accept from the unsaved. In chapter thirteen, though, Christ turns His attention to His own little flock and the theme changes from faith to obedience. "If a man love me, he will keep my words" (Jn. 14:23). This change in the theme of John's Gospel illustrates the difference between relationship and fellowship. Faith is the prerequisite for relationship; obedience is the requirement for fellowship. Faith is the way to become a child of God; obedience is the way to walk in fellowship with the Father.
BigMack
O Holy Theotokos, pray that we may be delivered from the gloomy toll-houses!
I think suffering for your sins is a spiritual requirement and a biblical reality that is God ordained. What about David of the Old Testament? I could have the wrong impression but you act like earthly suffering is just a man made formality that God could care less about.
"What does the bible mean in Heb. were it says, one scrafice perfected believers forever. What you are saying by believeing in purgatory is that you weren't perfected by the one sacrafice, that you have to add to it by going to purgatory to finish the job."
Are you saying that this passage you quoted means that you have been perfected such that you can escape any form of suffering for your sins? I think the passage means that we can never be perfected by doing the works of the law, only by Christ. That is NOT the same as saying you don't have to suffer for your sins. There is no contradiction between the Redemption and our suffering in expiation for our sins whether that suffering is in this life or in the next. Paul said I "rejoice in my sufferings for you, and [I] fill up those things that are wanting in the suffering of Christ" (Col. 1:24). Ronald Knox explained this passage by noting that "the obvious meaning is that Christ's sufferings, although fully satisfactory on behalf of our sins, leave us under a debt of honour, as it were, to repay them by sufferings of our own." And as we have said time and again, purgatory is temporary. And it is there that Christ himself perfects us. We don't perfect ourselves.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.