It Came From The Roman Church: Catholic horror stories told by Evangelicals & how to respond

This Rock/ Catholic Answers via Petersnet ^ | David Mills

[redhead]

"Wow! I am in awe of all of you who lead those wanting to learn about the Catholic Church through RCIA. God bless you!"

LOL! No need, I assure you! It's been years since I led an RCIA class, although I lead the parish Bible-study classes. I did have the pleasure of team-teaching the high-school class with my pastor a couple of years ago, but it was very hard to get anything out of them, and I'm sure that they were hardly moved at all. But it was a rich experience, and I at least got to learn the names of the high-school kids in the parish!

[drstevej]

OP's point,

"I rather suspect most Modern Romanists would be every bit as adversarial in their response to the question "You're using contraception, aren't you?" as the Modern Protestant, and the statistics would suggest no difference whatsoever on the actual widespread usage of contraception."

is right on the money, is it not?

[Lady In Blue]

Which Church wrote the bible? And which Church decided what books go into it and which does not? Also,did you know that Martin Luther wanted to take the entire letter of St.James out the bible? If it wasn't for the Catholic Church,Protestants wouldn't have the bible!

[Desdemona]

You all are still at it? Good Lord. Are the circles at least concentric? And maybe getting smaller? No? Oh, well. At least I'm learning a lot.

[Polycarp]

Why don't you just pick up the bible and trust God to teach you instead of man.

That's what got us the thousands of different and infighting protestant denominations, plus scripture itself says we need guides in interpreting it, and sola scriptura ain't scriptural.

Any other questions?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I believe God wrote the bible not the church. Big difference. Do you believe it is inspired or not? Did God write it or the Church? Who is most powerful, God or Church?

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

plus scripture itself says we need guides in interpreting it, and sola scriptura ain't scriptural.

LOL, I am debating on another thread at the same time, and someone just said just about the same thing.

Yes I do have another question, the one I asked him. Can you please give me scripture refernces for this. Thanks.

Becky

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

This reads like a great paradox! If I read you right, it sounds like, although we stand apart, on either side of a great divide, we really are only separated by a small trickle of a tributary of the mighty river that separates us BOTH from those modernist Christians on the other side of a grand canyon? And the river they will not cross to us is essentially the river of obedience to the foundational authority of our Creator God.

After the death of Solomon, the Kingdom of Israel was divided into the great camp of Israel and the smaller camp of Judah.

Often bitter enemies to eachother, both Israel and Judah suffered grave apostasies. Israel was very often overcome by Apostasy and, arguably, Judah somewhat less so; but both Nations apostasized greivously against God in their turn.

However, while Israel and Judah sometimes allied with, and often fought against, eachother, we can say one thing for certain:

In both Israel and Judah, some Saints remained faithful; and in both Israel and Judah, the real enemies of God were not primarily the pagan kingdoms surrounding them, but rather the false and Anti-Nomian Tares in their own respective camps, who led both Israel and Judah astray in their turn.

[Polycarp]

is right on the money, is it not?

Yep, such is the nature of the great falling away.

There is one essential difference.

Protestantism teaches its OK.

Our Church still teaches, as did all of Christianity for all time, that contraception is inherently wrong. And the tide is quietly turning in our Church, as the faithful increasingly realize the Church is still right on this issue.

One Church stayed faithful, one fell into apostacy, at least by the yardstick of orthodoxy in moral theology regarding marriage and human sexuality.

If one desires to argue that the vast majority of Christians have spoken, and rejected the traditional teaching of Christianity on contraception, that's OK.

The debate then becomes, is that rejection of a continual teaching accepted by all Christianity common sense, or is it common apostacy.

If its the latter, which Church did not fall into that apostacy?

[Polycarp]

Are the circles at least concentric? And maybe getting smaller? No?

LOL! Not until the consummation of the world, I fear.

[Polycarp]

Did God write it or the Church? Who is most powerful, God or Church?

The Church is the Body of Christ, Christ is its Head. The two are inseparable. You pose a false dichotomy.

[Polycarp]

Can you please give me scripture refernces for this. Thanks

It'll have to wait till tomorrow, its on my other compter.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

That's what got us the thousands of different and infighting protestant denominations, plus scripture itself says we need guides in interpreting it, and sola scriptura ain't scriptural. Any other questions?

Okay, here's a question:

Assuming that the Truth is somewhere within Rome, which soteriological position is Biblically correct, that of the predestinarian Augustinian Catholics or that of the free-will Molinist Catholics?

They are certainly different, they are certainly infighting, and given the fact that they have respective nomenclatures for their positions, they are certainly denominated from eachother theologically.

The fact that there are "thousands of different and infighting protestant denominations" is not really a valid argument. The state of the Church is this:

• There are thousands of different and infighting Protestant denominations whose only real "communion" is that they have all rejected the particular claims of "universality" advanced by the Roman Bishop; and...
• There are thousands of different and infighting Roman denominations whose only real "communion" is that they have all accepted (or at least pay lip-service to) the particular claims of "universality" advanced by the Roman Bishop.

None of which answers the prima facie question of the legitimacy of Rome's claims at all. The existence of "infighting" among Protestants is hardly a compelling argument when the Bishop of Rome has plenty of his own to deal with.

[Evangelium Vitae]

For to us, "God" means the god of Abraham, the Triune God, and Mary is simply a creature, however glorious.

To quote de Montfort:

14. With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, "I am he who is". Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I did not ask anything about the body of Christ. I asked do you believe the bible is inspired by God or the church? Who is more powerful the church or God?

If you are trying to say that the church is the body of Christ thus making it God or equal to God, that would be idol worshipping at least and could be blasphemy.

Becky

[Desdemona]

Wait a second. Hold the phone Becky. I've heard this one before. God wrote the bible? Then why did it take 100 years to get the 27 books of the New Testament? And why then 27 books. Why not just one? Why didn't Jesus write it himself? Why, then, were the Gospels written for different audiences? Why are there three synoptic Gospels instead of all four? And why synoptic? Why not TOTALLY different?

If God wrote it, it should have been one book written by Jesus. Instead we have ten epistles written by a Roman tax collector, or whatever he was. Four more attributed to him, but not believed to be his work. One Gospel for the Jews, one for Mesopotamia, one for the gentiles, which took two scrolls so is divided into two books, and on and on.

Sorry. That one doesn't hold water. The bible is interpretation of the Word (Jesus didn't write it himself) - and memory. The first Gospel was written down over 30 years after the Resurection. Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians was written at least 10 years before Mark. (The details run together. I haven't had to know this for a long time.) The truth of the matter is, this is all we have. This and the Apocrypha, which is rejected by Protestant sects.

To say that God wrote the bible just doesn't work. Sorry.

[Lady In Blue]

I've already picked a number of good CATHOLICbibles,including the venerable "DUAY-RHEIMS" version. Thank you very much,and I might add,it has all of the books that go in it, not like your incomplete St.James version.Since you know the bible so well, you must remember St.Peter's admonition against personal interpretation of the bible.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Our Church still teaches, as did all of Christianity for all time, that contraception is inherently wrong.

Our Church still teaches, as did all of Christianity for a time, that personal Election unto Salvation is Unconditional and Irresistible under the aegis of the infinite merits of Christ's atonement.

One Church stayed faithful, one fell into apostacy, at least by the yardstick of orthodoxy in salvific theology regarding God's Sovereignty and Absolute Predestination.

If one desires to argue that the vast majority of Christians have spoken, and rejected the Apostolic teaching of Christianity on Election, that's OK.

The debate then becomes, is that rejection of the Apostolic teaching on predestination common sense, or is it common apostacy?

[Lady In Blue]

Do you really believe that the bible just dropped down from heaven?! The Catholic church believes that the bible is the inspired word of God. God,however used human instruments,including Church councils to decide which books were inspired and which were not.

[Desdemona]

I've been thinking about this one. Mary is mother of the church. The only one in the history of the church with that privilege. (think GW with feet on the coffee table, Barbara tells him to put them on the floor) For this, her role, she is honored.

Any veneration of the Blessed Mother begins as all other prayer does, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son , and the Holy Spirit. Amen" Not in her name, but the Trinity.

I guess I don't understand the confussion. Mary is not God. She is an instrument. She just happens to be a very important one.