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To: Physicist
A crude strawman. I am around scientists every day. I have never in my career heard anybody make this claim, ever. It would be a foolish claim to make, since anyone with even a peripheral connection to science sees previously accepted results being overturned regularly

That was precisely my argument. TRUE scientists are pragmatists. Alas some who claim they are scientists use "science" to promote their ideology. Galton and eugenics, leading to the Nazis, is one example. Much of what passes for "social science" similarly is more based on ideology than science, since they ignore complex parameters that contaminate their data.

Evolution neither denies nor affirms a Creator. It is a scientific observation.

Darwinian evolution, however, uses an observation and inserts religion into it's thesis. (Darwin started his search with the question of how things could exist without God: Not as an indifferent scientist).

Darwin insists blind chance was behind evolution. But evidence shows there is a tendency toward complexity in nature. Systems evolve into complex systems in leaps, not gradually. This tendency toward complexity is not necessarily due to a god. But it could be. That is why Darwinians continue to ignore more modern theories like information theory or Chaos theory.

Similarly, like other ideologues, this author is using "science" to destroy a belief system-- to destroy religion. Sorry, but science has neither proven nor disproven the existence of God. As Rummy would say: the absence of evidence is not the same as the evidence of absense. There has so far been no adequate experiment devised to detect if God exists or not. On the other hand, things like beauty, absolute truth, and love cannot be proven scientifically to exist.

859 posted on 06/18/2002 4:31:35 AM PDT by LadyDoc
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To: LadyDoc
Darwin started his search with the question of how things could exist without God: Not as an indifferent scientist).

You know this is ad hominem (to the man) and therefore irrelevent. Evolution stands or falls on its own merits, not the motivation of its proponents. The same is true for proponents of "Intelligent Design." Of course their agenda is to prove God. So? ID stands or falls on the evidence they bring to the table. In that department they have a lot of work to do.

862 posted on 06/18/2002 4:46:15 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: LadyDoc
(Darwin started his search with the question of how things could exist without God: Not as an indifferent scientist).

But why do you lay this at Darwin's feet? It is the purpose of science to find quantifiable explanations for natural phenomena. Back in Newton's day, people honestly believed that the planets moved in their courses because angels were pushing them around by hand. Newton came along and demonstrated that gravity was sufficient to explain all planetary motion, and as a result, Newton "banished God from the heavens themselves", as has been said. Why don't I see you railing against him? The distinction is political.

So OK, maybe the development of life is a series of divine miracles. But please don't call that science, and don't whine if science nevertheless tries to find rational explanations. That's what science is for. That's what science is. Calling something a supernatural miracle is a refusal to search for a rational explanation. It is a last resort after every possible rational explanation has been tried and disproven. It is a throwing up of the hands and an abdication of the goals and purposes of science.

That may seem to you like an appropriate response to the daunting complexities of life on Earth, but you are way out of line in chiding scientists for not feeling the same way. Science is what we do. Other people's belief systems can't be permitted to influence our research. The fact that basic biology offends your political sensibilities is of no more consequence than the offense some tribal shaman might take at the atomic theory of matter.

865 posted on 06/18/2002 5:13:45 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: LadyDoc
There has so far been no adequate experiment devised to detect if God exists or not. On the other hand, things like beauty, absolute truth, and love cannot be proven scientifically to exist.

Quite true, there are many things which science cannot know of. Materialism is one of the silliest philosophies around, it denies the possibility of intelligence, logic, art, mathematics, geometry, conscience and much more - just about everything which makes humans human.

879 posted on 06/18/2002 5:57:52 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: LadyDoc
(Darwin started his search with the question of how things could exist without God: Not as an indifferent scientist).

Could you post a reference where Darwin says this is his starting point?

910 posted on 06/18/2002 7:34:05 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic
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