Are any other Catholics creeped out by hand-holding during the Lord's Prayer-Vanity Post

lanceboyle | 13 June 2002 | lanceboyle

[SoothingDave]

Handholding during the Our Father is completely improper. 1) There is no basis for it in Tradition. 2) It duplicates the Sign of Peace. In a parish that practices holding hands during the Our Father, there should be no Sign of Peace.

I'd add a number 3, Father. 3) It is a superfluous sign of unity in the congregation, only moments before being in Reality united in the Eucharist.

SD

[SoothingDave]

I kind of lean toward saying the words of the consecration with the priest. What do you think? If I start it will it catch on?

Only if you want to contribute to the breakdown in the roles between priest and laity. Parts of the Mass are for the people, parts are reserved to the priest.

The parts left for the priest, like the words of consecration, are better left to the priest.

Ditto for the outstretched, open palm posture in praying the Our Father. If you have a deacon, notice his posture and the priest's. The priest has the open palm (Orans) position, while the deacon has his hands folded. Only when the deacon is ordained as priest is his gesture changed.

And the folks in the pews are all mimicking the priest (if they're not holding hands, that is.)

SD

[Gophack]

I don't particularly like the hand-holding, but it doesn't bug me. I think it started because people were putting their hands up during the prayer like the priest, and it just sort of happened.

The sign of peace is a wonderful part of the mass, I have never had a problem with it. It shows that we care about our fellow Christians. When it gets out of hand -- like I once attended Mass at a Los Angeles parish and the priest wanted everyone to "mingle" as opposed to simply shaking the hands of those in front or in back of you. That's dumb.

We have beautiful music at my church, different feelings for different masses. One mass is organ music and very traditional; another is guitar and piano, a little modern but no less revert (they put in an eastern influence during Lent that was incredible and very holy) ... in fact, we sing the traditional songs but with a more modern feel (no changing the words!) ... and another mass has one lady I call the opera singer. Beautiful voice, but I don't feel like joining in.

I want a traditional mass in the sense of complete worship and reverence for the Word of God and the Holy Eucharist. At the same time, I like the modern-ish music provided that it is, in fact, music for worship. I attend a Cathedral near my work during the week occassionally and I get the very proper, very traditional mass and music there. There's a place for all feelings of worship, as long as the reverence is 100% present, and the Holy Eucharist is treated as the most important part of the Mass, which is it.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. Sorry to ramble.

[Miss Marple]

Theresa was being sarcastic. She was not serious.

[SoothingDave]

Theresa was being sarcastic. She was not serious.

Yes, thank you. Another Freeper pointed that out privately. I should have known cause I've seen her around here before, but I didn't catch it the first time.

SD

[Miss Marple]

And I should have told you privately. Sorry...wasn't thinking.

[Senator Pardek]

I personally hate the "Peace be with you" handshake. I find it annoying.

For me, that used to be my favorite part of Mass. I enjoyed connecting with people in my community for a brief moment, whom I did not know, but recognized.

But holding hands is gay.

[livius]

Actually, it's never seemed gay to me. Gay men hate each other too much (the cat fights, don't you know) to do something like that.

To me, it's mushy and synthetic. Genuine community is not show by grabbing the hand of a stranger when you are told to do so.

It's shown by a parish that cares about its members, that greets strangers (at the door, not in the liturgy), and that has lots of organizations of good Christian folk who like to hang out together (K of C, sodalities, etc.). I'll never forget the "progressive" parish I was in once where the pastor banned the men's club because they - gasp! - drank beer at the parish festival.

Again, I hate holding hands because it's a parody of what real community is.

But I guess it's easier for Fr. Bob than abandoning his teenage cutie of the moment and doing some serious work. And it's also easier to have laypeople who think that community means holding hands, rather than putting the work into having a functioning parish.

[daffyduct]

I prefer to outstretch my hands during the Lord's Prayer. The new testament calls for the men to pray "...with blameless hands held aloft". I don't usually raise them above my head unless at a Catholic Charismatic mass. By the way, Charismatic Catholics are NOT wierd as some previous posters have insinuated...they are generally very devout Catholics who are 100% in tune with Rome and are willing to accept all the spiritual gifts that the Lord wishes to bestow on them. Not to cause you scandal, but the Pope has stated that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is in the center of the Church renewal. We are very much an army fighting with prayer, fasting and parish involvement against the liberal "demons" afflicting the Church. When I was in Rome with a group of about 200 Catholic Charismatic Covenant Community members from all around the world, we had a private audience with Pope John Paul II and outstretched our hands over him while praying in the Spirit (tongues)for him.

If holding hands, I prefer to hold hands with my wife since there is real power when a husband and wife join together in prayer.

As for guitar masses: From 1968 until a few years ago I led guitar masses. The songs were generally easier to sing and led to more participation from the congregation. Songs from scripture are especially uplifting, but there are some liturgical musicians who don't have a clue as to which songs to use in a particular liturgy. I like songs that are in the Prayer to God and Praise category. I don't like the namby-pamby hymns sung at most masses nowadays that are about what God has done for us or Christian action. Guitars and other string instruments were used in Liturgy for centuries before organs were invented. There is nothing wrong with "Holy God We Praise Thy Name" or "Praise to the Lord" on a guitar. Leading the congregation in Songs of Praise that unite the Church in Worship of Jesus is the job of the Minister of Music, no matter what instrument they use.

[Salvation]

DON'T wash the chalices.

Unbelievable!

We have a routine:
Wash in warm soapy water.
Rinse in hot water.
Dip the edge of the ceramic chalices in bleach/water solution
The golsplated chalice may not be dipped in the bleach/water solution, however.
Put away all the dishes and lock up the chalice.
Clean up

All the Eucharistic Ministers are trained that this is part of their duty after each Mass when they are scheduled.

[afraidfortherepublic]

All the Eucharistic Ministers are trained that this is part of their duty after each Mass when they are scheduled.

We are too. However, our EMs come from many different places (our parish was combined with another by the VERY RECENTLY RESIGNED Archbishop Rembert Weakland because he has a priest shortage -- I wonder why?) and so we have people who have been doing this for years combined with new people trained a new way. At my suggestion, we even have the rules posted over the tiny sink -- to no avail.

I served with a guy who gave the cups a quick rinse (not even the edge), wiped them out with a dirty dish cloth (not quite dry) and put them away. I was the only one (the only newcomer) who said anything about this. Of course I was ignored by all the others who just wanted to get out of there. Now we have posted rules, but no one pays any attention. The older EMs do what they want, and the cups get little, or no, sanitation. I notice that a lot of the EMs (myself included) are not taking the cup.

[RobbyS]

What bothered me about liturgical reforms was that it was done so hastily and seems more intent of getting rid of the old liturgy than in reforming it. Why has plain chant, for instance, been totally abandoned? This form has roots in the very distant past, and probably hymns sung in Solomon's temple were performed in this manner. And the singing is not done in a way that encourages congregational singing. For instance, the congregation is asked to remain seated during the offertory song, but everyone knows that singing while seated is very difficult even for a trained singer. Also musicians seem to think they they must have a wide variety of songs. But Americans especially can only sing songs they have memorized and they cannot be expected to have memorized the dozens of tunes that are theown at them. How often has a musical dirctor thrown a new song at the congrehation, which struggles to pick up the tune, usually failing?

[american colleen]

Again, I hate holding hands because it's a parody of what real community is.

And it's also easier to have laypeople who think that community means holding hands, rather than putting the work into having a functioning parish.

Exactly! And I don't know one person who likes it. And it interupts the Mass and makes you "start all over again" attempting to achieve the prayerful prayerful state you were in before the hand holding/shaking.

[daffyduct]

Good points. Chant is beautiful, and as for the new hymns that seem to turn up...you are absolutly correct. I participated in the preparation of a new parish hymn book a number of years ago. It seems that the nun who was in charge of compiling it insisted on over 500 different hymns, mostly ones that nobody ever heard of. I used to practice a new song with the congregation before mass a couple of weeks in a row then used it frequently for the next few months, as long as it was liturgically correct for the season. Now, they just post the numbers on a board from a thick "Music Issue" and we are expected to know it.

[RobbyS]

Glad to know that there are people out there with commonsense. The problem with litugists is that they are fixiated on their own ideas. Criticize them and one get's that LOOK--the "how-dare-you look," of the expert.

[FBDinNJ]

Dirty chalices aren't that bad. While I was an altar server a few years ago, at my parish, the vessel holding the wine would always be left uncovered before and during the mass. So during masses in the Spring and Summer I often noticed the Deacon picking all different kinds of God's wonderful creatures, mostly flies though, out of the wine before it was consecrated.