For Whom did Christ die? - Puritan Logic (Calvinism)

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[CCWoody]

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

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The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

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[Hank Kerchief]

So you do believe the atonement was transactional and that sins are "paid for" by a certain amount of suffering. You believe if Christ has suffered a little more, a few more people could have been saved, or, if He suffered a little less, a few less could have been saved. Is the correct?

Hank

[RnMomof7]

Prevenient grace is the the grace that God gives to sinners PRIOR to their repenting/believing, that enables them to see their sorry condition, enables them to experience guilt, and enables them to step in the direction of God.

Of course there is a scripitual reference for this grace correct?

Xzins how is it that this general grace is so powerless?

[RnMomof7]

Translation: Having lost the debate on logical, and factual grounds, and further, having exhausted your cogitative resources, You are Bailing Out!!

There is another version that goes "I am not talking to you anymore" ...same translation:>)

[drstevej]

Nope. I believe he paid the death penalty for me. BTW, unlike some of my Calvinist FR buddies, I believe in an unlimited atonement (akin to Amyraldus). His death was sufficient for all but effective only for the elect.

My 5 point buddies can answer you if they like from the perspective of Particular redemption.

BTW, does Isaiah 53 rattle you any?

[drstevej]

Pre-ven-ient Grace, how sweet the sound,

That coaxed a wretch like me.

I once was lost, but came around,

Was blind, but still could see.

[Hank Kerchief]

BTW, does Isaiah 53 rattle you any?

Rattled me long ago, but now only refreshes me. It is one of the passages that most comforts me. Expecially Isaiah 53:6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Which for me ends all debate about a "limited" atonement.

Hank

[drstevej]

I appreciate your argument for unlimited atonement (although I know the Calvinist response). Ny question has to do with Isaiah 53 answering Finney and others who deny a penal understanding of the atonement.

[ventana]

You mean the John 6 in the Christian New Testament where everyone who wants to eat gets their fill? LOL. And these were not even the saved!

[RnMomof7]

Pre-ven-ient Grace, how sweet the sound,
That coaxed a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but came around,
Was blind, but still could see.

May I have your scripture citations on this please:>))

[drstevej]

You don't need no scripture for a hymn, you know that!

[RnMomof7]

"I got rhythm, I got rhythm. I got rhythm who could ask for anything more".....now seeing I have 7 kids it is obvious I was a little off beat.....UMMMMMMMMMM like YOU :>)

[Elsie]

The difference between Calvinism and Wesleyan Theology is the HOW do they come:>)))

I do not care HOW they come........

I do not care WHY they come...

I only care IF they come........

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...everything else is debatable and arguable: none of it productive.

[RnMomof7]

I want them to come too...that is why it is important to offer the gospel..have missions and sing and dance in church (the last part is for me:>))

[drstevej]

Real Calvinists don't dance!

[Elsie]

Elsie, that isn't an accurate reflection of Wesleyan theology at all.

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You are probably right.

I attend a church that has 'Wesley' in it's name. However, we do not STUDY Wesley, we STUDY the Book.
We do not Emulate Wesley, we want to be like Christ.
We do not Worship Wesley, we Worship the King.

There are, no doubt, doctrines that each of our respective churchs 'adhere' to, because that is the name over the door, but unless it is a 'church' with only one member, there WILL be disagreement, even within those walls, about how to interpret Scripture and live our lives in accordance to what each of us think it means.

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It's too bad that so many minor things are dividing us, when there are SO many MAJOR things that unite us.

[RnMomof7]

Real Calvinists don't dance!

I am telling Matchett-PI on you he/she has a battle with legalism...."I got rhythm I got rhythm I got rhythm "...(it is a hang over from my more fertile period:>)

[Elsie]

NIV Colossians 3:7-17
 7.  You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 
 8.  But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.
 9.  Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
 10.  and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
 11.  Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
 12.  Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
 13.  Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
 14.  And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
 15.  Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
 16.  Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs * with gratitude in your hearts to God.
 17.  And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

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* (Even dancing, if you want to!)

[Elsie]

"in essentials, unity;

in non-essentials diversity;

and in all things charity"

-- Augustine

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It's like you've been invited out to dinner; you can choose not to go...

The question is can you turn down an invitation from God if it is His wish that you attend?

If your answer is yes, it would appear you are greater than your host, in that you are able to thwart God's desire.

Salvation isn't determined by the guests, but by God; it's His party. And He's known who was going to sit at the table with Him from before time began.

[Cvengr]

Unlimited atonement is taught in 2 Cor 5:14-15, 19; 1 Tim 2:6, 4:10; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 Jn 2:2.

Additionally, we are specifically told we are not saved by works alone, lest any man should boast.

Numerous other doctrinal issues also reinforce the issue. Angels were created originally with everlasting life, and then rebelled. Now mankind is in evidence testing proving how His judgment upon the fallen angels is just. If only limited atonement, then not much could be said with regards to any or all of mankind upon review of God's judgment, Satan would be set free and maintained higher than man. This flies in the face of Scripture, or blasphemous.