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To: RnMomof7;xzins;CCWoody;editor-surveyor;orthodoxpresbyterian; CCWoody; JeanChauvin; the_doc
Pre-ven-ient Grace, how sweet the sound,

That coaxed a wretch like me.

I once was lost, but came around,

Was blind, but still could see.

65 posted on 05/07/2002 8:10:58 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Pre-ven-ient Grace, how sweet the sound,
That coaxed a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but came around,
Was blind, but still could see.

May I have your scripture citations on this please:>))

69 posted on 05/07/2002 8:59:28 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej
Now THAT'S funny:>)
82 posted on 05/07/2002 11:42:13 PM PDT by irishtenor
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To: drstevej; elsie
Elsie, please see below for scriptures on prevenient grace and for all else you need to know about dealing with the system of calvinism. The chart of course will not help at all with some folks saracasm or rudeness.

Thought I'd show you the updated, current version of the Wesley-Arminian Chart

Free Choice (Wesley-Arminianism) Compared with Calvinism
FreeChoice Position. Scripture Implication Calvinist Objection Calvinist Implication
A. - - - The Primary aspect of God’s nature, his primary attribute, is Love.
1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Rom 5:8 God commendeth his LOVE toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant…he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
All theology must understand the centrality of Love in the nature of God such that "God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." G…Calvinists believe that God’s primary motive is the protection of His own GLORY and sovereignty, thus His primary attribute is Power. All theology must understand the prerogatives and centrality of God’s sovereignty and power..
1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined
Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord ."
Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
People go to heaven or hell based on their own choices for or against Christ. God foreknew their choice. U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins. God chooses whether or not any individual will be saved. He chooses based on his own reasons which he has not revealed.
2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The opportunity for Salvation is available to everyone. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sin. Everyone is allowed to come to Christ. L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.. Christ's sacrifice was intended only for those who were chosen ahead of time for salvation. Everyone is not allowed to come to Christ.
3. - - - In accordance with the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace
Acts 7:50 Has not my hand made all these things?'[1] 51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him--
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
In the same way humanity has been endowed with the capacity to say "yes" to God, it has also been endowed with the capacity to resist, to say "no," to God's offer of the gospel. I - - Irresistible Grace means that the elect are incapable of resisting the Holy Spirit's inward call to repentance and salvation Those God chose for salvation are unable to say "no" to salvation due to God's overpowering them with his attractiveness. (Neither are the non-chosen able to say "yes." God never attempts to attract them.)
Free Choice (Arminianism) Compared with Calvinism
FreeChoice Position. Scripture Implication Calvinist Objection Calvinist Implication
4. - - - Pre-regenerate Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and prevenient divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.
John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.... . 9The true light that gives light to EVERY man was coming into the world.[2]
Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their CONSCIENCES also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
The Spirit of Christ, based on the pure grace of God, gives enough light to every human, speaks sufficiently to each human heart, despite its inherent sinfulness, such that each person is confronted with a real, complete choice for or against God. . T - - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ Humanity does not have an effective conscience, nor does any man have, before regeneration, any internal capability to receive any good message from God. There is no residue of the image of God remaining in pre-regeneration man.
5. - - - It is not certain from the bible that all who are truly regenerate will necessarily persevere in the faith.
John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The Christian does best who obeys Christ's direction, "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." It is best to have oil in your lamp, as did the wise virgins. Additionally, the Lord who demands holiness of us will out of his love empower us to follow after that holiness without which no one will see God. P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are preselected for salvation will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost There is no act or unbelief following salvation that can cause one to lose salvation, OR those who act or believe inappropriately must never have been truly saved.

85 posted on 05/08/2002 3:41:01 AM PDT by xzins
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To: drstevej; Jerry_M
Well, I should have brought cookies to Bible study last night. Let's see:
  1. Everyone specifically rejected the idea that before our conversion we were men of a perverse heart. The church of Christ decon basically said we are good and just need to follow Jesus to be saved.
  2. And Titus 3 didn't go over well either. They all concluded that v. 5 is talking about water baptism. You know, you go in without the Holy Spirit and you come out with the Holy Spirit. The idea that it is regeneration being discussed was thrown out. And it was at this point that speaking in tongues came up...
  3. I'm not certain the ex-RC will be ever coming back. (Note: I didn't say anything about his comments concerning baptism)
  4. At one point, when asked what I was thinking, I replied: "Do you really want to know!"
All in all, I had fun.
93 posted on 05/08/2002 6:29:48 AM PDT by CCWoody
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