How I Changed My Mind About Mary

e3mil.com ^ | 5/6/02 | Mark Shea

[nickcarraway]

by Mark Shea

How I Changed My Mind About Mary

5/6/02

It once seemed perfectly obvious to me that Catholics honored Mary too much. All those feasts, rosaries, icons, statues and whatnot were ridiculously excessive. Yes, the gospel of Luke said something about her being "blessed" and yes I thought her a good person. But that was that.

No Mary, No Salvation

People who celebrated her or called her "Mother" or did all the million things which Catholic piety encourages bordered on idolatry. It was all too much. Jesus, after all, is our Savior, not Mary.

However, after looking at the gospel of Luke afresh and thinking more and more about the humanity of Jesus Christ, some things dawned on me. For it turns out that Luke said more than "something" about Mary. He reports that God was conceived in her womb and thereby made a son of Adam! This means more than merely saying that Mary was an incubator unit for the Incarnation. It means that the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity derives his humanity--all of it--from her! Why does this matter? Because the entire reason we are able to call Jesus "savior" at all is because the God who cannot die became a man who could die. And he chose to do it through Mary's free "yes" to him. No Mary, no human nature for Christ. No human nature for Christ, no death on the cross. No death, no resurrection. No resurrection, no salvation. Without Mary, we are still in our sins.

Too Much vs. Just Enough

This made me see Mary very differently. The Incarnation is vastly more than God zipping on a disposable man-suit. He remains man eternally. Therefore, his joining with the human race through the womb of Mary means (since he is the savior of us all), that she is the mother of us all (John 19:27). Moreover, it means that her remarkable choice to say "Yes" to the Incarnation was not merely a one-time incident, it was an offering of her own heart to God and us. Her heart was pierced by the sword that opened the fountain of blood and water in Christ's human heart, for it was she who, by the grace of God, gave him that heart (Luke 2:35; John 19:34).

Seeing this, I began to wonder again: If Catholics honor Mary "too much", where did we Evangelicals honor her "just enough." Mary herself said "henceforth, all generations will call me blessed." When was the last time I had heard a contemporary Christian tune on the radio sung in honor of Mary? Or a prayer in church to extol her? How about a teensy weensy bit of verse or a little article in some magazine singling out Mary as blessed among women? Aside from "Silent Night" was there anything in Evangelical piety which dared to praise her for even a moment? I was an Evangelical for seven years and I never saw so much as a dram of it.

St. Luke? Is That You?</>

So the question became for me, "How could we talk about something being 'excessive' when we had virtually no experience of it ourselves?" What if it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our horror of Marian piety and Catholics who are normal? Judging from the witness of the early Fathers and even of Martin Luther (who had a very robust Marian devotion and whose tomb is decorated with an illustration of the Assumption of the Virgin into Heaven) it seemed to me that it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our fear of her rather than Catholics who were excessive in their devotion.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

There. That didn't hurt a bit. In fact, I think I heard St. Luke pray it too!

[11th Commandment]

As a former Roman Catholic, now a Lutheran Catholic, I have contemplated this question. Here is my answer.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. This is strait from scripture. Catholics and Evangelicals should take this seriously. She is blessed. This is a loaded theological point.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." This is "man made" and should be taken with a grain of salt.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

I agree that Mary should be honored as the mother of JESUS..but I do have a problem with calling Mary the 'mother of God' ..

Luke 1:43 "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me."

[11th Commandment]

This is what everyone is saying, she is the mother of his humanity- his Lordship. Not the Mother of God. This title elevates her to deity. From there, big mistakes happen like “co-redeemer” theology.

[Gophack]

That was a really good, short and to the point essay. (I am rarely "short" or "to the point", so I admire it when I see it!)

41 And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.

42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

God bless!

[Gophack]

Maybe this will help:

To a Catholic "Full of Grace" is what God commanded Gabriel to say to Mary, calling her not by her mere name, nor even by her title, but by her REALITY! God doesn't give titles without infusing the reality of the title. Mary alone, of all humans, received that title; she alone has that reality. If you are full of Grace, or full of anything that means there is not room for anything else. If Mary had had sin, she would not have been FULL of grace, and Gabriel would have been speaking error. Thus this small phrase points very clearly to Mary's Immaculate Conception. In fact, the phrase doesn't make sense without it.

God bless.

[AKA Elena]

Someone last year on FR asked for a copy of the words and music to the song to Our Lady of Fatima, which sheet music my sister, the Sister, had in storage in Louisiana.

She asked her congregation to find it for her with no luck, as she was serving her ministry at the side and in the home of our Mother until her death in July of last year.

The first thing Sister Mary did when she returned to Louisiana was go through her storage and find the music.

She sent that to me in September or early October -- and sadly, I could neither find the thread which referred to it, nor did I have the Freepmail in that regard with the name of the person who made the request.

Now it is here (both a good copy and the original) "near my computer" if that person still wants it!

Don't forget to pray the Rosary for Priests on Sunday at the time appropriate for your part of the country.

[Notwithstanding]

Elizabeth refered to Mary "mother of my Lord" when Mary came to visit while they were both pregnant. (Luke 1:41)

[american colleen]

Just out of curiousity, what is a Lutheran Catholic?

[Notwithstanding]

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Martin Luther on Mary

			The Mother of God In his commentary on the Magnificat, Martin Luther wrote: "Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase, 'the Mother of God'. No one can say anything greater of her or to her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees . . ."
	To many Christians the role of Mary as Mother of God and also their Mother finds no support in the New Testament. But Martin Luther from his study of the scriptures could write in 1529: "Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of us all. If Christ be ours . . . all that he has must be ours, and His Mother also must be ours." The simple gospel fact is that Jesus had a mother and that that mother had a mission in the plan of Salvation. In our human history there would have been no Fatherhood of God without the Motherhood of Mary, for God became man in the normal way of men through a mother. Had He been only a man who lived and died and was forgotten then she too could be ignored and forgotten. But the Jesus who was born of Mary expanded into mankind, making Mary the mother of mankind. Jesus is Christianity - Mary, the mother of Christianity. Anyone who honestly considers this basic Christian truth can never say Mary is irrelevant, for nothing that mattered to Jesus can be irrelevant. And Mary mattered to Jesus. The person who sets his life on being one with Jesus, of following His teaching and imitating Him oftentimes overlooks the very first act of Jesus in the plan of Redemption: He first gave Himself to Mary. And in the end, from the cross, He gave her to us. The great goal of the Christian is to be identified with Jesus, to be one with Him. In this sense Mary was the first Christian and her purpose, now, is to bring that same Jesus to His fullness as He lives on in us. "For we," says St. Paul, "are the Body of Christ." The role of Mary as Mother of God is in fact found in the Bible. In Luke 1:41-45 we find the following: And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." In John 19:26-27 we read that Jesus gave Mary to us (represented by John the Beloved Apostle) as our mother also: When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. Contrary to an often-heard criticism of the Catholic Church based on a lack of understanding, Catholics do not worship Mary;  we worship God alone! Veneration of Mary and the other saints and prayer to them are quite different. What many non-Catholics mistake for adoration is a very profound love and veneration, nothing more. Traditional theology has sharply distinguished the reverence accorded to Mary and the saints ("dulia") from the worship and adoration that are due to God alone ("latria"). Mary is not adored, first because God forbids it, and secondly because the Canon Law of the Catholic Church, which is based on Divine Law, forbids it. If you would like to know more about Mary and her place in the Christian life, or about the Catholic Church in general, complete our REQUEST FOR INFORMATION form or contact the Legion of Mary at: Legion of Mary P.O. Box 220412 Chantilly, VA 20153 Back to the Legion of Mary Home Page [THE CATHOLIC SHOP] * [MONTESSORI CATHOLIC COUNCIL] [LEGION OF MARY] * [APOLOGETICS] * [TRANSPORTER INFO SERVICES] This site is operated by Transporter Information Services. For more information or suggestions on improvement, send e-mail to WebMaster@transporter.com © 1999 Transporter Info Services, All Rights Reserved.

[11th Commandment]

Interesting point; however, the question needs to be asked- is Mary "full of Grace" because of what she did or is she "full of Grace" because of what God did. "Hail Mary full of Grace, the LORD is with thee... If Mary was full of Grace by herself, why would the LORD need to be with her?

[maryz]

If Mary was full of Grace by herself, why would the LORD need to be with her?

How could she be "full of Grace" if He weren't?

[Steve0113]

"Full of Grace" is what God commanded Gabriel to say to Mary, calling her not by her mere name, nor even by her title, but by her REALITY!

I never noticed that before. Gabriel did not address her by name, but by description. "Hail, full of grace."

[Gophack]

You confused me.

Mary is full of Grace because of what God did at her conception (the immaculate conception). The Angel Gabriel said this to her BEFORE she said YES to God. So, she was full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee. Obviously, everyone needs the Lord. Mary was a human being. She believed with her whole heart in God. She devoted her life to Him even before the Angel Gabriel came to her.

Then, the Angel tells Mary what God is going to do, and she is humble, reflecting how all humans should be. Even Jesus in His humanity was humble.

So it wasn't her saying YES that filled her with grace, she was full of grace and then said YES.

Luke 1:28-38
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren.

37 Because no word shall be impossible with God.

38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Mary is the ultimate Christian: she said "be it done to me according to thy word", acknowledging that God is doing something great and wonderful to her, of which she has no ability to accomplish. Nothing is impossible with God. Why is the Immaculate Conception so difficult a concept to grasp? To me, it makes perfect sense. Mary is the Second Eve, and would be sinless like Eve prior to the Fall. God can preserve Mary from Original Sin and have Jesus, Son of God, Son of Man, born in a clean and pure "vessel". Jesus' humanity came from Mary alone, because there was no earthly father. If you can accept the Virgin Birth, why is the Immaculate Conception so difficult to accept?

Early Protestants had no problems with the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption of Mary. Early church fathers from the first, second, third centuries all acknowledged Mary's special role in our Salvation. I hope that you will think and pray on this.

God bless.

[11th Commandment]

Exactly, her Grace is imputed from God, not by her own volition. So Mary sinned, but because of God's Grace, his imputed righteousness cleaned her Sin. If Folks want to say she is the "ultimate Christian" because she is "full of Grace", that doesn't dispute the fact it was because what God did, not what Mary did.

[11th Commandment]

Catholic, is the whole (body of Christ), Universal. I follow the apostle's creed which believes in the holy Catholic Church. Some are a Lutheran Tradition, some are of a Roman, Methodist, etc.

[Angelique]

Beautiful post. Thanks HM for bringing me here.

[MudPuppy]

ahhh the Legion of Mary site....one of my favorites :)
Check Fr Peffley's page while you're there.

Semper Fi!

[Gophack]

I don't disagree at all that it was God's actions that made Mary sinless. Mary did nothing to "earn" that sinlessness. The Catholic position is that Mary was cleansed of Original Sin upon conception. Pre-Jesus, there was no Baptism in water and spirit, and Baptism removes original sin from a Christian's soul (but not the free will to sin again). Mary had none of that. She was "full of grace" PRIOR to saying YES to God.

God bless.

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

(You are aware that Catholics do not worship Mary?)

I am a lifelong Catholic and have yet to meet a Catholic who worships Mary.

Daily, Daily, Sing to Mary

Daily, daily sing to Mary,
Sing, my soul, her praises due.
All her feasts, her actions worship
With the heart's devotion true.
Lost in wond'ring contemplation,
Be her Majesty confess'd.
Call her Mother, call her Virgin,
Happy Mother, Virgin blest.

She is mighty to deliver.
Call her, trust her lovingly.
When the tempest rages round thee,
She will calm the troubled sea.
Gifts of heaven she has given,
Noble Lady, to our race.
She, the Queen, who decks her subjects
With the light of God's own grace.

Sing, my tongue, the Virgin's trophies
Who for us her Maker bore.
For the curse of old inflicted,
Peace and blessing to restore.
Sing in songs of peace unending,
Sing the world's majestic Queen.
Weary not nor faint in telling.
All the gifts she gives to men.

You don't see this as a hymn of worship?

[don-o]

I agree that Mary should be honored as the mother of JESUS..but I do have a problem with calling Mary the 'mother of God' ..

Christ is Risen!

Then you are a Nestorian. That heresy was condemned at the 3rd Ecumenical Council.

Paste:

Held in Ephesus, Asia Minor in 431 under Emperor Theodosius II (grandson of Theodosius the Great). 200 Bishops were present.

The Nestorian Controversy

It concerned the nature of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Nestorius taught that the Virgin Mary gave birth to a man, Jesus Christ, not God, the "Logos" ("The Word", Son of God). The Logos only dwelled in Christ, as in a Temple (Christ, therefore, was only Theophoros: The "Bearer of God". Consequently, Virgin Mary should be called "Christotokos," Mother of Christ and not "Theotokos, "Mother of God." Hence, the name, "Christological controversies".

Nestorianism over emphasized the human nature of Christ at the expense of the divine. The Council denounced Nestorius' teaching as erroneous. Our Lord Jesus Christ is one person, not two separate "people": the Man, Jesus Christ and the Son of God, Logos. The Council decreed that Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God (Logos), is complete God and complete man, with a rational soul and body. The Virgin Mary is "Theotokos" because she gave birth not to man but to God who became man. The union of the two natures of Christ took place in such a fashion that one did not disturb the other.

Don-o says: If you relegate Mary to being a "chosen vessel" used by God to get a body, you are Nestorian. The fact that He rose up from the dead in a body that Thomas could handle; the fact that He ate, and at the same time walked through walls; the fact that his glorified human body ascended; all these facts support the historical understanding of the Incarnation.

It is indeed foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.