Posted on 05/05/2002 11:30:36 PM PDT by nickcarraway
I take it you don't believe in the Trinity.
I do not find any mention of a miraculous event regarding the pregnancy surrounding Mary's birth in the Bible. (as RC theology presumes was the case)
I do find in the Bible a miraculous ocurrance regarding Jesus' birth (as Protestant theology maintains). The miracle of the incarnation guarantees the sinlessnes of Jesus without constructing a doctrine of Mary's prior immaculate conception.
So now let me say that I'm not seeing it with this particular argument. Sure Mary said "yes" to God. So did Abraham. Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son and got right to the point of doing it. Yes, Mary may have risked her reputation and possibly even her life (though it's hard to believe God would ask you to have His Son and then let you be stoned before Jesus could be born). But the Apostles said "yes" and did risk their lives and most did give their lives.
There are likely better arguments to support the Catholic view of Mary. I don't find this particular one to be very compelling. Not that it really matters what I think. Each person has to decide for himself/herself.
Mariology proves how gullible the masses can be. Strong delusion, indeed!
I think you're also being a little free with what you term protestant theology. You consider yourself the arbiter of what is protestant theology? Luther, Calvin and Zwingli are usually considered protestants and they disagree with you. Do you consider them Catholics?
Of course you can.
I am the parent of my child. But God is the creator and owner of my child's soul.
That's pretty basic stuff, GSG.
Where did you dream that one up?
You obviously haven't been following many of the Calvin threads.
Are you aware, for example, that Martin Luther had the Assumption of Mary put on his tomb?
"Full of Grace" proves Mary was free from Original Sin? If that's all you got biblically, you are still on purely conjectural ground.
Why did Luther have the Assumption on his tomb?
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Conjecture not logic. Your response will need to be more reasoned to have a dialogue.
[2] Make sure the quotes you post affirm the Mary was free from the taint of Original Sin, as was my challenge.
[3] The issue of my post was Mary being born free of Original Sin. What does the Assumption have to do with this?
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LUKE 11: 27-28. "As Jesus said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!' But Jesus said, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"
In Calvin's "New Testament Commentaries, Volume 2, he explained the praise of Mary by this woman as "By this homage the woman intended to praise Christ's excellence. It was not Mary she was thinking of -- maybe she had never seen her -- but she magnified Christ's glory by lauding and blessing the womb in which he was carried...Yet Christ does not accord with this woman's saying. Rather, it contains a hint of reproof. 'No,' he says, 'Blessed are they who hear God's word.' We see that Christ thought next to nothing of what the woman praised."
Your feeble assertions can't change the Reformation.
Do you accept that Mary believes in her Son? If so, then she is not dead. She is alive.
Joh 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has eternal life... [present tense]
Joh 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life [present tense]; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 6:47 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. [present tense]
1Jo 5:13 - I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. [present tense]
Each of these passages speak to the undeniable Scriptural truth that those who are true followers of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ have eternal life. Eternal life is life that does not end. Thus, Mary and the other followers who have fallen asleep in the Lord are not dead - they are alive. This is good news! Christ Bless.
When you say ``conjecture'' you're not denying it, you've retreated to the position that you can't prove it. If you believe bible study is important, why haven't you studied this in more depth. Other positions you hold would equally be considered ``conjecture.'' (I assume you don't believe in the Trinity)
Am I wrong in asserting that the Annunciation was an important event? Why would you assume God would be lazy or imprecise in revealing that he was bringing His Son into the world. In saying Gabriel's word's are ``conjecture,'' is tantamount to saying that his telling Mary that she was to bear the Son of God is ``conjecture. Gabriel was not ``shooting the breeze,'' with Mary when he addressed her, ``Hail, full of Grace,'' he was there for a specific purpose. Every word the Angel says is important. The word ``full'' has a meaning and God is not imprecise in talking to us.
I am not trying to change the reformation or say my opponents agree with me. Nor can you change the fact that Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli were not in complete agreement with you. I'm getting you a some citations, but in the meantime, why don't you explain to me why Luther had the Assumption of Mary put on his tomb?
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