God So Loved The World

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_52.html ^ | 5/3/02 | Prof. Homer C. Hoeksema

[DouglasKC]

First, In Ephesians and in James, those instructions are to those who are already in the faith. They are not directed to unbelievers.

So believers are told to submit themselves to God which implies that they have free will? Do non-believers not have free will but believers do?

With that out of the way, let's address what I see to be your biggest challenge. You keep talking about God "forcing Himself" on His elect. What you fail to notice is the fact that we are talking about "irresistable grace", meaning that this grace, when presented to the elect, is too good to resist. Why does God have to "force" me to accept Him when His grace is so desirable that I would jump over the furniture to receive it? God woos His elect, and gathers them to Himself on the basis of His irresistable charms. (Much like I wooed my wife with my irresistable charms!)

I'm not going to make a judgement on your charm...:-)

Maybe I was wrong, but I thought the argument was that the elect have no choice when it comes to God's calling. They have to do it. If you want to use the example of your wife, then she was always free to reject you (not that she would) no matter how irresistable you were. If you want an example of why human nature is so hesitant to select good over evil, then you only need to look at the example of some abused women. They stick with a guy who beat the crap out of them for whatever reason.

[fortheDeclaration]

Therefore I affirm with John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4 that God loves the world with a deep compassion that desires the salvation of all men. Piper

Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. Calvin

[DouglasKC]

More people using their will to resist God.
So your will is stronger than God's grace and stronger than God's desire to save you? Are you sure you are really not god ?:>)))

From your viewpoint my will wasn't strong enough because he did win. :-)

We are destined to be sons and daughters of God. If your son or daughter decides to disobey you does that diminish your love toward her? Suppose your kid goes and plays in the road? What do you do? You love them and don't want them to get hurt so you discipline, you teach them that it's dangerous. You could even put a fence up to prevent her from going into the road. But ultimately what she needs to do is to submit her will to yours.

Did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin before He made them?

Before he created them? Since God is outside of time, then yes. He absolutely knew, but there was nothing he could do to stop it since he had granted them free will.

A better question would be did God know Adam and Eve would sin before he created the universe and time itself?

[DouglasKC]

Jam 4:7 Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Was that written to believers or unbelievers?

Believers. But why if believers or unbelievers have no will in the matter must they be told to submit themselves?

[Jerry_M]

"So believers are told to submit themselves to God which implies that they have free will? Do non-believers not have free will but believers do?"

First, where have I ever said that non-believers don't have free will? (They are free to do whatever they want to do. The problem is that they, in their natural state, never want to please God.)

Those unregenerated will never please God.
Those regenerated, yet not glorified, can choose to please God or not.
Those glorified will never displease God.

[Jerry_M]

"We are destined to be sons and daughters of God"

Who is your "we"? Are all men destined to be the sons and daughters of God ? If not, then to what are the others destined ?

[Corin Stormhands]

Those regenerated, yet not glorified, can choose to please God or not.

Help me out here Jerry. Will someone who is "regenerated" choose not to please God?

Is there a possiblity that someone who is "regenerated" will not become "glorified?"

[Jerry_M]

"Before he created them? Since God is outside of time, then yes. He absolutely knew, but there was nothing he could do to stop it since he had granted them free will."

Nothing He could do? Are you sure of that?

He could have chosen not to create them. He could have chosen to create them under different conditions, with different characteristics. (If not, then what restrains Him? What is bigger than God?)

[DouglasKC]

First, where have I ever said that non-believers don't have free will? (They are free to do whatever they want to do. The problem is that they, in their natural state, never want to please God.)

I'm getting confused. I thought the argument for Calvinsism was that we essentially have no choice, no will in the matter, of whether we want to turn to God or not. Am I mistaken?

Those unregenerated will never please God. Those regenerated, yet not glorified, can choose to please God or not. Those glorified will never displease God.

Define regeneration.

[Jerry_M]

"Will someone who is "regenerated" choose not to please God?"

Of course! This is the daily choice for all believers, and our biggest struggle. The Apostle Paul describes this battle between our earthly flesh and the Spirit of God in Romans Seven.

Do you ever sin against God? Do you ever need to seek His cleansing? Me? I am a "filthy, rotten, sinner", and find that I need to go to Him often in confession. I have discovered that every second not yielded to Him is an offense against Him.

"Is there a possiblity that someone who is "regenerated" will not become "glorified?""

Absolutely not.

[DouglasKC]

"We are destined to be sons and daughters of God"
Who is your "we"? Are all men destined to be the sons and daughters of God ? If not, then to what are the others destined ?

All who have chosen to believe are destined to become sons and daughters of God. The others are destined to death.

[DouglasKC]

"Before he created them? Since God is outside of time, then yes. He absolutely knew, but there was nothing he could do to stop it since he had granted them free will."
Nothing He could do? Are you sure of that?

Okay, he *could* have done something, but he wouldn't because he has chosen to grant us free will and to abide by that.

[Corin Stormhands]

Absolutely not.

So, the unregenerated cannot choose God.
The regenerated (as chosen by God) can displease God, but cannot "not" choose God (become glorified).

Where's the choice?

[Jerry_M]

"Am I mistaken?"

Apparently.

Regeneration: (from R.C. Sproul)

Regeneration is the theological term used to describe rebirth. It refers to a new generating, a new genesis, a new beginning. It is more than "turning over a new leaf"; it marks the beginning of a new life in a radically renewed person.

Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit upon those who are spiritually dead (see Ephesians 2:1-10). The Spirit recreates the human heart, quickening it from spiritual death to spiritual life. Regenerate people are new creations.

Regeneration is not to be confused with the full experience of conversion. Just as birth is our initiation, our first entrance into life outside the womb, so our spiritual rebirth is the starting point of our spiritual life. It occurs by God's divine initiative and is an act that is sovereign, immediate, and instantaneous. An awareness of our conversion may be gradual. Yet rebirth itself is instantaneous. No one can be partially reborn any more than a woman can be partially pregnant.

Regeneration is not the fruit or result of faith. Rather, regeneration precedes faith as the necessary condition for faith. We also do not in any way dispose ourselves toward regeneration or cooperate as co-workers with the Holy Spirit to bring it to pass. We do not decide or choose to be regenerated. God chooses to regenerate us before we will ever choose to embrace Him. To be sure, after we have been regenerated by the sovereign grace of God, we do choose, act, cooperate, and believe in Christ.

[Jerry_M]

"So, the unregenerated cannot choose God. The regenerated (as chosen by God) can displease God, but cannot "not" choose God (become glorified)."

Go back and re-read my 225. You will see that I used different verbs than you did, thus your conclusions are incorrect.

I will be so bold as to say that the unregenerate are commanded by God to obey. However, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, in regeneration, they will never choose to do so.

You didn't answer my primary question: Do you sin?

[Jerry_M]

"Okay, he *could* have done something, but he wouldn't because he has chosen to grant us free will and to abide by that."

Now that you see that your logic is falling to pieces you need to go one step further and recognize that your presupposition concerning free will is pretty much flawed. Once again, why is it that you place so much emphasis on your will?

[Jerry_M]

"All who have chosen to believe are destined to become sons and daughters of God. The others are destined to death."

I would modify your sentence slightly:

All who were chosen (by God) to believe are destined to become sons and daughters of God. The others are destined to death.

[RnMomof7]

So believers are told to submit themselves to God which implies that they have free will? Do non-believers not have free will but believers do?

Doug..if you can grasp this concept you will be the first non Calvinist to get it:>)) So I am hopeful

We all have free will..every one of us does exactly what we choose. Believers must be told to submit, to bend our not yet perfected wills, to line up with Gods..

Non believers... and the non elect (note there are elect people that are not yet believers:>) also have a free will and can do exactly what they choose to do...

So what is the difference in what the Calvinists say and the Arminians ..(and your church say?) . We believe that man is spiritually dead from the fall, not just a little injured. This fallen man's natural will, has his will shaped by what he is able to see and understand. The natural man will not seek after the sovereign God of creation.He will never choose to repent ,the natural man will never choose to give his life to Christ (be converted).

It is not until the man is changed by an act of the Holy Spirit that he wills to repent.The grace of God changes man so that he seeks and desires God...

He is now doing exactly what he wants..he is now freely choosing exactly what he wants.

The Grace of God has changed that man..his wants are changed.He now desires God.

[RnMomof7]

Before he created them? Since God is outside of time, then yes. He absolutely knew, but there was nothing he could do to stop it since he had granted them free will.

You have a very weak and powerless God there Doug. Because He knew BEFORE creation,God could have simply made Adam and Eve differently. He could have made Eve less gullible:>) He could have made Adam in such a way that he would have honored the responsibility He gave to him..God could have given Adam more grace for the moment of temptation or He could have made Adam in such a way as to make Adam seek to be more obedient.

God also could have changed the circumstances...He could have kept the snake out of the garden, He could have put the tree outside the garden

No Doug God was not helpless..man's free will did not trump God's power.God allowed the fall to occur it happened with His permission. God was not powerless, or blind or helpless...God foreknew and allowed the fall..

[Hank Kerchief]

We are free to do exactly as we want in this regard. However, none of us will ever choose to accept Him, or do any act pleasing to Him, except that He first give us new hearts that want to do so.

Choice is not determined by want. If it were, it would not be choice. The choice to obey God has nothing to do with what we want or desire. In fact, that choice is meaningless unless it is against our wants and desires.

This confusion of "desire" and "volition" (what Calvinists sometimes mean by "will") is a great mistake. You and I make choices all the time that have nothing to do with what we want, but only to do with what we know is right. At least, I do.

Hank