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To: DouglasKC;jerry_m
So believers are told to submit themselves to God which implies that they have free will? Do non-believers not have free will but believers do?

Doug..if you can grasp this concept you will be the first non Calvinist to get it:>)) So I am hopeful

We all have free will..every one of us does exactly what we choose. Believers must be told to submit, to bend our not yet perfected wills, to line up with Gods..

Non believers... and the non elect (note there are elect people that are not yet believers:>) also have a free will and can do exactly what they choose to do...

So what is the difference in what the Calvinists say and the Arminians ..(and your church say?) . We believe that man is spiritually dead from the fall, not just a little injured. This fallen man's natural will, has his will shaped by what he is able to see and understand. The natural man will not seek after the sovereign God of creation.He will never choose to repent ,the natural man will never choose to give his life to Christ (be converted).

It is not until the man is changed by an act of the Holy Spirit that he wills to repent.The grace of God changes man so that he seeks and desires God...

He is now doing exactly what he wants..he is now freely choosing exactly what he wants.

The Grace of God has changed that man..his wants are changed.He now desires God.

238 posted on 05/07/2002 2:28:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
The natural man will not seek after the sovereign God of creation.He will never choose to repent ,the natural man will never choose to give his life to Christ (be converted).
It is not until the man is changed by an act of the Holy Spirit that he wills to repent.The grace of God changes man so that he seeks and desires God...

Sorry, but I disagree. The bible teaches that repentence comes before reception of the holy spirit.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Repent. Be baptized. Then you will receive the gift of the holy spirit.

Act 3:19 Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Repent and then conversion. Repentence comes before conversion.

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,

God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent. If God commands it, then why hasn't everyone repented? It's because God doesn't force it.

249 posted on 05/07/2002 8:11:10 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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