God So Loved The World

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_52.html ^ | 5/3/02 | Prof. Homer C. Hoeksema

[CCWoody]

God does not demand that we desire to choose Him, but that we obey, whether we desire to or not. There is no virtue in doing what one desires. Virture is in doing right, in spite of our desires.

This Calvinist idea that sin has to do with desire is very destructive and deceptive. One does not need to desire God to choose to obey Him, one only needs to understand what is right, and to do it.

Hank, in all utter seriousness, unless you have a strong passion and desire for the Lord himself then your worship is a foul stench in His nostrils. In fact, worship can only be authentic if it is bourne out of our desire for the Lord. Please rethink your entire RELIGION.

Will you say to the Almighty: "I don't desire you, I'll just get by with obeying?"

Unless you have a zeal for the Lord himself, then He will not have a zeal for you.

[CCWoody]

What a bunch of pure man-made rubbish. Every last bit of it. Not worth refuting. You use Scripture to prove NOTHING but what your itching ears and hardened hearts want to hear.

And go talk to some confused soul who really worships the Pope - problem is such a person would be harder to find than a needle in a haystack.

Jesus Christ is my only Lord and Savior (DUH). May he have mercy on you for your ignorant blasphemies.

Steve, I'm talking right over their heads. BTW, I wonder what blasphemy against the Lord I'm suppose to have done. Perhaps it was a blasphemy against the Pope....

What is funny is that every time I see the Pope on TV, there is some RC kneeling before him and kissing his hands. But as for me: No king but King Jesus for the Lord Reigns TODAY. And that's good news indeed.

[DouglasKC]

I say God knew them before they were born and he created them in such a way that they would have make choices..They do choose what they want..but God has governed what they want before they were ever born
The problem is that because of the fall men do not really want God..they will not choose God..
Men love darkness more than the light
The grace of God makes man born again..it makes him the perfect creation that God had planned him to be before the fall.....once the man is born again his desires change and he now not only can choose God ,but he desires to choose God..
Does this make sense so far?

It does make sense, but I don't agree completely.

Having freewill that is freewill, but only within the choices set out by God isn't freewill at all.

God is outside of our time. Yet his presence his everywhere in the creation sustaining it. God can see our entire life because to him past, present and the future are indistinguisable. In that sense, I agree that we are limited in our choices...we've already made them and God knows what those choices are. He knows who his people are and always has. But he didn't make those choices. We did.

But paradoxically since we are within time, we truly have not yet made our choices. We still have complete freewill to make any decision we want. In fact, we need free will or we would not be created in the image of God.

We were created to be images of God. God's essence is love. A major part of God's character is complete free will. If we don't have free will, then we don't have Godly character.

The choice of following God is available to anyone. Anyone at any time could choose to follow God's calling and become one of the elect. The danger of us believing that only "we" are the elect is that a frame of mind is introduced that leads to an attitude of ONLY we will EVER BE the elect. This was exactly the problem that the Roman Catholic church had for so long. Only *they* were God's chosen, thus they were justified in anything they did or any attitude they held. What they failed to see was that persecuting anyone for their beliefs is the same as persecuting a brother in Christ, or at least a potential brother in Christ.

I appreciate your sharing your views on this. I think we are going to be destined to disagree, but I sincerely believe that God has the same destiny in store for us.

[CCWoody]

This is why the Holy Spirit needs to regenerate those who are dead in trespasses and sins. This is the miracle of the new birth, the implanting of a heart that loves God and seeks to please Him.

I'd just like to point out that Jerry and I are talking about 2 different things with our posts.

[Revelation 911]

Re: your Arminian test

#4 - yes, but I got it as a "freebie" with a Finney book and it concerned Mormonism (but was promptly discarded anyway)

#17, my wife had some given to her

#19 No, but does "my kid beat up your honor student" count?

#45 Yes that bothers me - I can see the rationale in that abstension gives no foothold for sin (conversely a foothold for legalism), BUT - Christ used wine at the last supper.

Let me ask a question. In using wine in communion, what is the Calvin stance regarding consumption otherwise. Free Methodists abstain altogether (myself for medical reasons & past abuse issues). I'd be curious to learn what the Anibaptists do. I do miss my Sunday wine, a heel of french bread and some imported peccorino romano.

I scored a two overall. However, having a strong romanist leaning should disqualify me altogether.

[Jerry_M]

"Having freewill that is freewill, but only within the choices set out by God isn't freewill at all."

Huh?

What is there that is not only within the choices set out by God?

If we believe that we live in a universe that has been ordered by God, and established in accordance with His dicates, then aren't all of our choices set out by God? We do not live in a world of our own making, we didn't even choose into which part of that world, or at what time, or from what parents, etc. etc. etc. that we would be born.

Just what type of freewill are you seeking? One that is divorced from the reality of your existence?

Once again, non-Calvinists show us that they cherish a freewill that not even God possesses, since not even He can operate independent of His existence.

[Jerry_M]

"I'd just like to point out that Jerry and I are talking about 2 different things with our posts."

Yes, but I was first. (No, you cannot take "cuts"!)

[Revelation 911]

"I'd be curious to learn what the Anibaptists do" as well.

[Corin Stormhands]

This is exactly what we have been saying for more than two years now, but the Arminians haven't given us the charity of conceding that this is what we believe.

And Jerry, the Calvinists have demonstrated their version of "charity" toward the Arminian viewpoint here. (and subsequent posts).

What a wonderful way of sharing the Calvinist "gospel." When your buddies say that Arminianism is the "lie of Eden," that Arminianism is "satanic," and speak of the "sovereign drugge of Arminianism," and when your buddies tell the Catholics that they are "Satanically screwed," do you really expect to be shown "charity?"

It is clear that there is no reasonable discussion with the Calvinists. You don't have to care about your behavior because you are the "elect" and you believe you're going to heaven no matter how you act and no matter what you say. You will scream and holler that you believe otherwise, but your actions speak louder than your words.

I see no further reason to discuss anything with any of you. Your credibility has been spent. No, it's been squandered.

[Revelation 911]

It is clear that there is no reasonable discussion with the Calvinists. You don't have to care about your behavior because you are the "elect" and you believe you're going to heaven no matter how you act and no matter what you say. You will scream and holler that you believe otherwise, but your actions speak louder than your words.

Yes, but we need to find some common ground - neither of us are putting a Christian foot forward for the lost lurkers who abound here. I had a pleasant private exchange with wrigley recently and both of us have agreed to be more civil towards each other in the future.

Does anyone else care to accept that challenge?

[DouglasKC]

Having freewill that is freewill, but only within the choices set out by God isn't freewill at all."
Huh?
What is there that is not only within the choices set out by God?
If we believe that we live in a universe that has been ordered by God, and established in accordance with His dicates, then aren't all of our choices set out by God? We do not live in a world of our own making, we didn't even choose into which part of that world, or at what time, or from what parents, etc. etc. etc. that we would be born. Just what type of freewill are you seeking? One that is divorced from the reality of your existence?

Sorry, bad choice of words, especially when pulled out of context. The point I was trying to make was that we have the free will to accept or deny God. God doesn't make us "choose" any option put before us.

I'll try to be more accurate in my wording in the future.

[RnMomof7]

There may be some things you do not know about Finney. He made mistakes in his theology, just as Calvin did, because he was only a man, but, unlike Calvin, he was used by God to win many souls

His ministry was in my area and he left little behind..they claimed salvation at the altar and then went away (thats what happens when Salvation is not all of God) ...Do not compare his theology to Calvin's, Finney's Theology was not Christian. He left a legacy of wood,hay and stubble..

[Revelation 911]

Corin, let it go - take the test & have fun with it - you can still pray for what concerns you, as do I. We used to laugh at the bully on our street. He used to get cheesed off, but once he figured out the group as a whole viewed him as amusing instead of upsetting, the nonsense subsided. Id suggest you try that approach. Excepting that, ALL of us are about to get banned

[Wrigley]

True, Rev. But remember that civil doesn't mean agree with.

[RnMomof7]

Having freewill that is freewill, but only within the choices set out by God isn't freewill at all.

So did YOU select your parents? Did you select the year or place of your birth? Did you select your sex or race or IQ?

All your "free will choices " happen within those boundries..I can not ever choose to be a french man or 15 years old again...do you admit that there are some "free will" choices we can not make?

If you jump from a 100 story building can you make a free will choice to change your mind at the 50th floor? Or does the superior law of gravity make that decision of no effect?

Think about this douglas..the idea of an unfettered free will is a lie of Satan...

[Corin Stormhands]

Corin, let it go - take the test & have fun with it -

Actually the test is kinda funny.

What I'm letting go is the time I spend here.

[RnMomof7]

I sincerely believe that God has the same destiny in store for us.

I know you do Doug..but I do not..and that makes me wish to continue the conversation..

[Jerry_M]

"The point I was trying to make was that we have the free will to accept or deny God. "

And what would you say if I told you that I agree with this statement?

We do have the "freewill" to accept or deny God. We are free to do exactly as we want in this regard. However, none of us will ever choose to accept Him, or do any act pleasing to Him, except that He first give us new hearts that want to do so. There are none righteous, no not one, there are none who seek Him. We need to be born again.

[RnMomof7]

True, Rev. But remember that civil doesn't mean agree with.

Satan was very "civil" with Eve...and look what that got us into..

Was Jesus "civil" I don't think so..I think He spoke the truth to ears that itched for lies...so they hung Him...That is what I think!

[Revelation 911]

He left a legacy of wood,hay and stubble..

Hence the term "burned over district". - His ministry in Rochester, while strong was frought with episodes of what could only be described as "interesting". In one instance, he proclaimed that he would not serve communion to a slaveholder. I find the comment disconcerting in that a slaveholder seeking communion from an abolishonist preacher, in a northern Church, in a town where Douglass was revered, was more than likely repentant.

Upstate holds an interesting place in Prot growth in the states, most notably a result of the canal system (completed in 1825). Mormonisms founder, Smith resided outside of Town, in Palmyra very near the Hill Cumorrah(SP) where he claimed to see the angel "Moroni". JW's Russell was editor of a local religious paper with a man by the name of Barker. The two came into disagreement and Russell split and created the "watchtower". Finney of course had ties to the area, and of course, Free Methodism began in Pekin, NY. The founder (B.T. Roberts) is buried about a mile from my home, just adjacent to what was Chesborough Seminary and is now Roberts Wesleyan College / North Eastern Seminary.