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This is exactly what we have been saying for more than two years now, but the Arminians haven't given us the charity of conceding that this is what we believe.

And Jerry, the Calvinists have demonstrated their version of "charity" toward the Arminian viewpoint here. (and subsequent posts).

What a wonderful way of sharing the Calvinist "gospel." When your buddies say that Arminianism is the "lie of Eden," that Arminianism is "satanic," and speak of the "sovereign drugge of Arminianism," and when your buddies tell the Catholics that they are "Satanically screwed," do you really expect to be shown "charity?"

It is clear that there is no reasonable discussion with the Calvinists. You don't have to care about your behavior because you are the "elect" and you believe you're going to heaven no matter how you act and no matter what you say. You will scream and holler that you believe otherwise, but your actions speak louder than your words.

I see no further reason to discuss anything with any of you. Your credibility has been spent. No, it's been squandered.

It is clear that there is no reasonable discussion with the Calvinists. You don't have to care about your behavior because you are the "elect" and you believe you're going to heaven no matter how you act and no matter what you say. You will scream and holler that you believe otherwise, but your actions speak louder than your words.

Yes, but we need to find some common ground - neither of us are putting a Christian foot forward for the lost lurkers who abound here. I had a pleasant private exchange with wrigley recently and both of us have agreed to be more civil towards each other in the future.

Does anyone else care to accept that challenge?

Corin, let it go - take the test & have fun with it - you can still pray for what concerns you, as do I. We used to laugh at the bully on our street. He used to get cheesed off, but once he figured out the group as a whole viewed him as amusing instead of upsetting, the nonsense subsided. Id suggest you try that approach. Excepting that, ALL of us are about to get banned

Some people think that if they insult and demean people of other beliefs that they can then get those people to hate them for the cause of Christ. They think that because people hate them that they are doing the Lord's work because all those who live godly in Christ will suffer persecution. So they deliberately present their version of the gospel in such a manner that it fulments hatred toward them.

What they are generating is not hatred because of the Gospel, but hatred because they are jerks. If we present the Gospel in a loving manner with a true concern that we are the representatives of Christ on earth, then we can be certain that those who reject the gospel and hate us will be hating us for Christ's sake and not because we are jerks. If we are hated because we are jerks, then we have no claim that we are being persecuted for Christ, we are merely being persecuted because we ourselves deserve it. It is a persecution of our "works" not of our Lord.

And Calvinists have been called all sorts of names, told they are worshipping the devil, accused of all sorts of evil, been lied about, their thoughts and ideas belittled. (remember "johny's little construct")? No ones hands are clean in this, no one can claim purity.