Julius Exclusus

1513/1514 | Desiderus Erasmus

[drstevej]

"Julius Exclusus"

Desiderus Erasmus

[Pope Julius II, on dying, arrives in heaven expecting a glorious welcome, but Saint Peter demands that he, like any other heaven-bound soul, justify his entrance.]

Julius: What the devil is up? The gates not open? Someone has monkied with the key.

Spirit: Maybe you have the wrong key. You've got the key of power.

Julius: It's the only one I ever had. I'll bang. Hey, porter, are you asleep or drunk?

Peter: Immortal God, what a stench! I'll peek through this crack till I know what's up. Who are you?

Julius: Can't you see this key, the triple crown and the pallium sparkling with gems?

Peter: It doesn't look like the key Christ gave to me. How should I know the crown which no barbarian tyrant dared to wear? As for the gems and the jewels, I trample them under my feet.

Julius: Come on now. I am Julius, the Ligurian, and I suppose you know these two letters [pointing to his chest] "P.M." If you can read.

Peter: Pestus Maximus.

Julius: Pontifex Maximus.

Peter: I don't care if you are Mercury Trismegistus, unless your life is saintly.

Julius: Saintly! For centuries you have been only a saint and I have been most saintly, sanctissimus, with six thousand bulls to prove it.

Peter: You are called sanctissimus, but are you sanctus? You don't look it: cassock over armor, eyes savage, mouth insolent, forehaead brazen, eyebrows arrogant, body poxed with debauchery, reeking with drink, a shambles of a man.

Spirit: Graphic!

Peter: I expect that you are Julian the Apostate back from Hell.

Julius: Come on now. If you don't open now I'll strike you with the lightning of excommunication. The bull is ready.

Peter: Bull? I never heard anything like that from Christ. What authority have you to excommunicate me?

Julius: Why you are a mere priest, if even that.

Peter: Show your merits. No entry without merits. Have you taught true doctrine?

Jullus: Too busy fighting. The friars look after that.

Peter: Have you won souls to Christ by holiness?

Spirit: He has sent plenty to Hell!

Peter: Have you worked miracles?

Julius: They are out of date.

Peter: Have you prayed and fasted?

Spirit: This is getting nowhere.

Peter: Well now, what is this rabble along with you?

Julius: Soldiers who died fighting for me. I promissed them heaven if they did.

Peter: So, these are the ones who tried to crash the gate a while ago?

Julius: And you didn't let them in?

Peter: I admit only those who clothe the naked, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, visit the sick and those in prison. Incidentally, why do call yourself a Ligurian? Does the family of Christ make any difference?

Julius: I want my country to have the credit of me.

Peter: You know, I am surprised the papacy is so sought after. In my day it was hard to get even priests and deacons.

Julius: Of course. You had only fasts, vigils and perhaps death. Today bishops are lords.

Peter: Tell me now. Why did you attack Bologna? Was it heretical?

Julius: No.

Peter: Was Bentivogilio a tyrant?

Julius: No.

Peter: Why then?

Julius: I needed revenue

Peter: Why did you harass Ferrara?

Julius: I needed it for my son!

Peter: What? Popes with wives and sons?

Julius: No, sons, not wives.

Peter: Is it possible to get rid of a pope say for murder, patricide, fornication, incest, simony, sacrilege or blasphemy?

Julius: Add six hundred more and the answer is still no. He can only be deposed for heresy and he determines what is heresy!

(the curtain falls)

[drstevej]

No problem... the foolish-one has become wise :))

[Matchett-PI]

#20 bump to you. Anything to add? (Sorry I forgot to undo the italics).

[drstevej]

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy."

=====

This is the initial sentence. Mercy isn't seen in its full magnitude until sin is seen in it's full magnitude. I think the counsel is to consider our true condition. Mature saints of God are not those who create their own do-don't list (like the Pharisees) but rather they see sin for what it is and lament it greatly. The more we see the offense of our words, thoughts and deeds... the more we see His grace.

Seems to me to be a call to clarity regarding sin and grace... spoken in true Luther (bombastic) style.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

You left out this part: No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.

Here's a few more gems from Luther:

"I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture."

"Libidinousness cannot be cured by anything, not even by marriage; for the greater part of the married live in adultery."

It is time for the husband to say to her: 'If you don't want to, another does;' if the wife is unwilling, let the servant-girl come.

I am inflamed with carnal pleasure, while I ought to be fervent in spirit. I am on fire with the great flame of my unbridled flesh and sit here in leizure and laziness, neglecting prayer.

Women must be used either for marriage or for whoredom.

If women breed themselves sick and eventually to death, that does no harm; let them breed themselves to death; that is what they are for.

[D-fendr]

Thanks, that's a good one, but my personal favorite is still The Jews and Their Lies

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools… Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed…

Strong sins indeed.

[RnMomof7]

Where, would you say, can we find the window into the Protestants of Luther's day?"
===== Probably not on The Neverending Story thread.

LOL you do get around...
Psss you are right:>)

[RnMomof7]

This is the initial sentence. Mercy isn't seen in its full magnitude until sin is seen in it's full magnitude. I think the counsel is to consider our true condition. Mature saints of God are not those who create their own do-don't list (like the Pharisees) but rather they see sin for what it is and lament it greatly. The more we see the offense of our words, thoughts and deeds... the more we see His grace.

Very wise.

[drstevej]

Thanks.

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

Peter: Show your merits. No entry without merits. Have you taught true doctrine?

Julius: Too busy fighting. The friars look after that.

Julius should have known that he must cling to Christ's righteousness during this line of questioning. :-)

Philippians 3:9

[drstevej]

Luther initially harbored optimism that if the Jews were presented the clear gospel they would embrace it. When they did not his reaction was very harsh.

====

He was woefully mistaken on both counts.

The anti-semitism of the era was widespread. Yet it is morally indefensible. Period.

Ditto for the intolerance against Anabaptists and theological radicals of the day.

[drstevej]

"Julius should have known that he must cling to Christ's righteousness during this line of questioning."

=====

I think his hands were full :))

[nickcarraway]

Wow, this is a stinging indictment of the doctrine of Sola Fides by Erasmus. He truly believe that faith without works is dead.

Peter: I don't care if you are Mercury Trismegistus, unless your life is saintly.

[Matchett-PI]

"You left out this part: No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."

I would imagine that might be something that the prodigal son would have said to encourage his older, goody-two-shoes brother who was afraid to be anything less than _perfect_ for fear that his father wouldn't give him his inheritance.

I guess Luther believed the _SCRIPTURES_ when they say, "Who will bring ANY charge against those whom *God has chosen*? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died -- more than that, who was raised to life -- is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. ... I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither present nor future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all of creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

You wrote: "Here's a few more gems from Luther:" [snip]

Like the Pharisees you seem to want to avoid certain *Truths* and instead try to appeal to people's *feelings* and *prejudices* rather than their intellect, by attempting to get them to focus on *personalities* ("He is a-- [glutton, a drunk, hangs out with other reprobates, etc., etc., ad nauseam].").

Those tactics will only work with the emotion-driven. Intellectually honest people, capable of critical thought, can't be side-tracked onto rabbit-trails leading nowhere important.

[drstevej]

Right, Erasmus was and remained a Catholic.

BTW, He is not unlike the conservative RCs on FR today who are disgusted by the deviant sexual conduct of some priests within the RC church today.

[D-fendr]

And your corresponding views on the dialogue that's the subject of the thread, would be…?

[Matchett-PI]

"Seems to me to be a call to clarity regarding sin and grace... spoken in true Luther (bombastic) style."

Agreed. There is a lot of truth contained in Luther's "tongue-in-cheek" advice.

[drstevej]

Post #29 by RWMIS would suffice.

[Matchett-PI]

"And your corresponding views …?"

My "corresponding" views??? :D

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Those tactics will only work with the emotion-driven. Intellectually honest people, capable of critical thought, can't be side-tracked onto rabbit-trails leading nowhere important.

You are being intelluctually dishonest if you fail to take into account all of Luthers writings, particularly those which give an insight into his true psyche and which show him for the person he truly was. In this case the "rabbit-trail" sidetracks people to the truth, which is always pertinent. Funny how one never sees a thread on FR touting Luthers writings on the Blessed Virgin Mary or the many contradictions contained in his correspondence with Pope Leo X, isn't it. One can lead the proverbial horse to the pool of truth but one can't make him drink.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Wow, and to think I respected you before clicking on your thread. Thanks for making what I hold sacred into the butt of your jokes.