Posted on 04/26/2002 9:01:52 AM PDT by WhatNot
Many churches focus on the "eucharist," which for them means the bread of the Lord's Supper. Other believer's don't think the concept of the eucharist is Biblical. But the concept of "eucharist" is Biblical. The word "eucharist" comes from the Greek "eu" meaning "good" and "charis" meaning "grace" or "blessing." The eucharist at the Last Supper was not the bread itself, but the blessing Messiah said over the bread. The blessing is one said in Jewish homes to this day: "Baruch Atah Adonai Elohaynu Melech Ha Olam, Ha Motzee Lechem Min Ha Aretz" - "Blessed are You O Lord Our God, King of the Universe, Who brings forth bread from the earth." This is the true eucharist.
The true eucharist is never eaten, it is given. It is a blessing of thanks to God. It's not the bread, it is the blessing over the bread. And this distinction can change your life. Life doesn't consist of the things you have, but the blessings you say over them. You only truly have what you bless and give thanks for. Give the blessing of thanks over your, bread - your parents, your family, your friends, your situation - over everything, good and bad. And your life itself will be truly blessed, for such is the true eucharist.
Luke 22:14-20
TODAY'S MISSION
Prepare a private communion service today, with you and Messiah. Lift up to Him those things that need to receive His blessing - your loved ones, your job, your ministry.
It's important to remember that all of Scripture is the revealed word of God, and that nothing contradicts anything else. If one passage SEEMS to contradict another passage, then you have to look at the explanations that are not in contradiction. It seems to me that throughout the Gospels, the Real Presence is explicit ... "This IS my body," ... "The IS my Blood" ... "My flesh is food INDEED" ... "My blood is drink INDEED" ... "Truly, truly I say to you, that if you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you". Literally? Yes ... because the flesh is of no avail, but the SPIRIT gives us life, and the SPIRIT turns the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
God bless.
Amen, Amen, Amen.
Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee [as] incense; [and] the lifting up of my hands [as] the evening sacrifice.
That scripture is using the word just as the early church did..I am a Saint..all believer are saints...and all of our prayer is represented by the incense
Show me a scripture that says we should pray to the dead....and I know you say "intercessor" but the Bible says..1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
I ask again how do the saints ..that are not gods and are not omnipresent hear all your prayers? Unless you give them gods nature it is impossible
"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing."
What translation do you have that reads
... because the flesh is of no avail, but the SPIRIT gives us life?
or is this just something you made up?
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
He said He was the vine...Historically Israel was pictured as a grape vine...the grape vine was on their money and over the door of the temple....They understood the import of talking like that..
Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that had come down from heaven..how could He be the sacred Manna?? How could he be what save the people of Israel in the desert? How could they now generations removed "eat" that bread?
Jesus used metaphors and it was not given to all to understand...those that could not hear the truth walked away..He was telling them He had come to save them ......but they did not have the ears to hear
NIV:John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.
NASB:John 6 63
"(1) It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing;
KJV:John 6 63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing
NKJV:John 6 63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
AMP:John 6 63
It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it].
DARBY:John 6 63
It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing:
ASV:John 6 63
It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing:
RSV:John 6 63
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail;
Notice none of these translations read:
"the flesh is of no avail, but the SPIRIT gives us life"
Twisting the Word of God around to support what you believe does not add credibility to your argument.
One commentator criticized me because I quoted a Catholic apologist and suggested that I "use my own words" in explaining why I believe in the Real Presence. Therefore, I was attempting to do so. However, I can't quote every verse of every chapter in the Bible ... apologies if I offended.
I still hold to my faith, and am stronger because of our discussion.
Yours In Christ,
gophack
God bless.
Thank you for pointing it out, I did not intentionally twist the Word of God. I didn't have the verse memorized and like I pointed out above, I was criticized when I cut and paste.
God bless
And I ask once again. Where did he say in any of these metaphorical examples you bring up that he was a *true* shepherd? Where did I say I am a *true* vine?
We all know Christ spoke metaphorically on occasion. The question is whether he is doing so HERE:
hé gar sarx mou alethes estin brosis
the-for-flesh-of me-TRUE-is-food
kai to aima mou alethes estin posis
and-the-blood-of me-TRUE-is drink
My flesh is TRUE food, my blood is TRUE drink. He is making a strong statement of substance here that he simply does not make with any of your other examples. Add to that the use of the word "gnaw/chew" and there's really no case whatsoever for taking this passage metaphorically.
Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that had come down from heaven..how could He be the sacred Manna?? How could he be what save the people of Israel in the desert? How could they now generations removed "eat" that bread?
Naturally, he couldn't be the sacred manna. That's not was he was talking about. The sacred bread coming down from heaven was not the manna of Moses, it was the Incarnation. Christ was not substantially present in the manna.
Excellent point Gophack.
Now Claud you know that manna was a type of Christ :>) But THEY did not know that...
So when He spoke He spoke to those that would understand..those He intended to understand.
Ok, but that's not really an answer. It's a recursive argument. You claim they walked away because they were not elect, yet the only evidence you have that they were not elect is because they walked away.
So why did they walk away? Says right in the sacred text: (v. 65) "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe." They left because they couldn't believe what he was saying, which only makes sense if he was saying something unbelievable. Like to gnaw his flesh and drink his blood. So they left. And still they leave today for the same reason.
Oh I totally agree! They couldn't possibly have understood what he was talking about. And in fact, at the end of this whole controversy, Christ turns and asks Peter.."Do you wish also to go away" and Peter (I love this part) *doesn't* say "No way Lord, we understand you perfectly!!"..he kinda avoids that whole issue..."Lord, to whom shall we go?" Even Peter didn't get it! But he had faith in Christ, even if he lacked understanding at the moment.
But Christ said it anyway, because he knew it would stick in their minds and then at the Last Supper (and fully at Pentecost) only THEN did it become clear to the Apostles what Christ meant way back when he talked about being the Bread of Life.
This was not the first time we caught him in lies. When we told him that we were prepared to expose him, he resigned from FR.
Thus, RnMomof7 merely set the record straight. (That, of course, is what I am doing with you!) And since she was the originator of the e-mail about which Ward lied, she had every right to post it (or to send copies to anyone on FR).
Agreed, but it could not all be understood even by his disciples before the Resurrection, e.g. "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again." Some of what he said were "seeds" that would only fully germinate with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
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