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To: JHavard
Peter called Rome the city, Rome the empire Babylon, not the Church there.

Imagine that you are sitting in a field listening to Jesus preach. In that context, when He told you to call no man Father, on that day, He could only have meant your own earthly father. To twist his words is to lose his message.

What proof can you share with us, showing that Mary is able to communicate your prayers to anyone?

I am so glad you asked :-) Go get a Rosary and start Praying it. You will see for yourself.

Are you saying now that she has no power to answer prayers, only take them to the Lord?

I don't recall having made any statements on NES on this subject prior to this. Can you provide a post #?

Do you believe she is omnipresent?

No

How else could she listen to the millions of daily prayers, and then organize them, and take them to God and explain what so and so needs?

Not my area.

Have you thought how ridiculous this sounds?

Well that's a bit rude.

v.

48,747 posted on 04/26/2003 8:58:41 AM PDT by ventana
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To: ventana; JHavard
Peter called Rome the city, Rome the empire Babylon, not the Church there.

Peter never referred to Rome as Babylon. How oft must it be noted that there is no basis for this. I understand you were taught this junk; but, I was taught that Constantine was a Christian and that ain't any more true than when I was taught that Alex Graham Bell said "Watson, come here, I want you." Alex didn't say that. Constantine followed Mithraism and Peter was in Babylon in the Fertile Crescent.

Now, When I started in this conversation over 2 years ago and nearly three now if memory serves. The Catholic position was that there was no settlement in Babylon at that time. Seems the propaganda at that time from Rome was saying this. When it was noted sometime back that not only was there a settlement in that area but a thriving Israelite community, the rhetoric changed to 'there was no settlement of any worth there. One assumes that either the Church at Rome still has little use for Israelites, is intent on belittling them or is just blind to history in favor of it's rhetoric and propaganda. For it seems everyone but Rome is capable of acknowledging the truth on this matter. Rome must have overlooked the two part early Israelite Diaspora in it's rush to reinvent history in favor of its fables. Perhaps Rome will eventually fess up to the truth? One can hope; but, one is not so foolish as to hold one's breath.

Peter, you'll remember was commissioned to go preach to the lost tribes of the house of Israel. And it just so happens that the Old testament records where those tribes went - East, Northeast, and North. Care to guess which directions are not included there. West is one of them, had to give it away you know. And West is the direction of What country? Italy - wherein is contained - you guessed it - Rome. So if Peter is an Apostle and commissioned to preach to the lost Tribes, the last place on earth he'd be caught dead would be where? Anyplace that isn't North, Northeast or East of Jerusalem (That would include Rome).

Now, as if it isn't apparent enough Where Peter should be, and where he should not be, is it possible To tell anything about where he actually was based on scripture. Yes, indeed it is. I Peter And II Timothy were written at roughly the same time according to dating methodology. Mark at this time was in service to Peter - acting as a scribe and penning Peter's first book for him presumably for this is what he did for Paul. And wouldn't you know, that going to I Timothy, another Character enters the picture - namely Timothy who was given charge over the Church at Ephesus. So flash forward to II Timothy again and now Paul is sending this letter to Timothy with a charge:

2 Timothy 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. [12] And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. [13] The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring [with thee], and the books, [but] especially the parchments.

So, We know that Mark was with Peter and aiding him. And Paul had to send to Ephesus and replace Timothy in Ephesus with Tychicus so that he could bring Mark to Rome to work for him.


See Ephesus over there on the right. Now lets zoom out..

See Ephesus over there on the right....

To say that Paul sent a messenger to Ephesus to go fetch Mark and Bring him to Rome when Mark is supposed to be with Peter in Rome tells us that though Mark is with Peter, he isn't in Rome, Much less in the same country as Rome. Thus if Peter was hailing from anywhere in I Peter, it was Babylon in the Fertile Crescent - not Rome. There is no reason to assume he was in Rome to begin with or to think he needed to use code language when Luke is with Paul in Rome and others are moving freely in and out of Rome with no trouble - at least no trouble Paul or the Romans were aware of.

Interestingly, II Peter is penned in a different hand - is absent any mention of anyone else being present and is entirely absent all the hallmarks that should be present if Peter were captive or suffering. Seems Peter didn't know he was supposed to be in Rome and under gaurd in prison at the time this Epistle was written. Though he is well enough aware of Paul's plight. Perhaps because of his visit with Timothy... One thing is clear, this journey from Rome to Ephesus alone would take quite a long time. There was no TWA, Air Italia, etc in those days. If you wanted to travel, you did so overland or jumped aboard a trade ship for passage. If you went by trade ship, you went wherever you had to go with the trade ship till it reached the point on it's route closest to your destination. However long it took, by the time Hebrews is written, Paul is still awaiting his visit from Timothy. Whether Mark ever arrived before Paul breathed his last is not recorded. But it isn't necessary to know.

I am so glad you asked :-) Go get a Rosary and start Praying it. You will see for yourself.

Hardly convincing. Or did you not know that Pagans got answers from their gods? Satanists get answers from their god. Etc. The only thing you're offering is that something is hearing and responding in some cases. Scripture tells us Mary can't hear you (Ecclesiastes 9). Since Mary can't hear you, And only Jesus can mediate before God on your behalf in heaven, something else has to be hearing and answering. It ain't God or Jesus because you're praying to neither and breaking the rules all around in the doing. Guess what you are praying to. I'll give you a couple chances and you ain't gonna like the answer.

Not my area.

Doesn't have to be. This is sort of a copout. You don't want to answer because you don't have a philosophy for this or haven't read it. Right. I mean up to now everything you've said is written in your philosophy and could be cut and pasted from prior conversations here with other Catholics. Go figure. In order for Mary to hear and respond to the number of prayers that Catholics alone pose to her, she would have to be omnipresent. That would make her deity. Bing bing bing. That's the warning that you're into big time trouble with this. Of course, if you knew scripture half as well as you seem to know church propaganda - I mean philosophy, you'd have those bells going off in your ears without my having to interject them.

Well that's a bit rude.

I'm sure that's the way Bagdad Bob felt when the Marines went to say Hi to him. How dare they spoil his propaganda. Was probably rude to him that they wouldn't commit suicide at the city limits for him either..

48,751 posted on 04/26/2003 10:19:39 AM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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To: ventana
Peter called Rome the city, Rome the empire Babylon, not the Church there.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

He is clearly talking about the church that was in in, see post #48,751 by Havoc. Lol

Imagine that you are sitting in a field listening to Jesus preach. In that context, when He told you to call no man Father, on that day,

On that day? ….So it was included in the Bible so we could see what Jesus said for them to do on that one particular day only,…. like God gave the Commandments for those at the foot of Sinai on that day only, huh? Yehhhhh Righht Lol

He could only have meant your own earthly father.

Of course, that’s much more likely then Him meaning exactly what he said.

Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

It’s obvious He was saying, “And call no earthly father, your spiritual father. If he is not your earthly father/dad, then he must be your spiritual father, and you know you have only one spiritual Father, and he’s in heaven.

I am so glad you asked :-) Go get a Rosary and start Praying it. You will see for yourself.

Uh huh, and I might pray to Muhammad while I’m at it too, because it would be the same thing to me.

My original question P#87,728
JH - Or this, "There is no mediator between man and God but Christ Jesus.

Your answer on p#48,730
ventana - No argument from me on that one. Mary's prayers, and anyone else's, on my behalf are most welcomed however.

You imply that all Mary can do, is pray for you in regards to your prayers to her, since you also implied she can’t answer prayers herself.

JH - Are you saying now that she has no power to answer prayers, only take them to the Lord?

ventana - I don't recall having made any statements on NES on this subject prior to this. Can you provide a post #?

It sure sounds to me like you made that implication, don’t you?

JH - How else could she listen to the millions of daily prayers, and then organize them, and take them to God and explain what so and so needs?

ventana - Not my area.

Are you saying you can’t answer this, but someone else can?

JH - Have you thought how ridiculous this sounds?

ventana - Well that's a bit rude.

Sorry if it's a bit rude, but have you considered how strange it sounds, when you believe something, but have never understood why you believe it? You’re praying to a dead person to intervene in your life, and you have no biblical text or even logic to offer as to how it’s possible.

JH

48,762 posted on 04/26/2003 12:31:44 PM PDT by JHavard (RC’s have opulence and tradition, NC’s have the Bible.)
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