Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I'm sure you don't. It's all "get saved" and live happily ever after.
SD
Quester - Does scripture indicate that there are such (who would seem to suffering from spiritual insanity) ?
JH
First it seems to me there are many problems that have their genesis in the definition of words. Particularly with salvation,rewards,crowns,justification,faith,belief and church.So at times I think everyone is on the same page and then I find we are not.
Rather than try to do what others have done with more scripture and clearer explanation,my position is that Ventana,Soothing Dave,RobbyS.,and II have it all right with regards almost all sequence,definitions and consequences.The rest of you agree on some things and differ on others and create quite a confusing conglomeration of what you claim is simple.
This splintering,fragmenting and the bickering that ensued,to me was one of the reasons Jesus entered time when He did;the Israelites,worshipping at the temple were losing the message and their identity.
Jesus came to find the lost tribes and simply opened the door for everyone to attain "Life Everlasting" and go home to the Father. He provided a means to offer this oppurtunity to all,which was predicated on their believing in Him,that He was the "WAY,TRUTH and LIFE".
Jesus prayed to the Father that all might be one as He and the Father were One,in the unity of the Holy Spirit.This is why the Church was established with a Vicar to be visible and audible to the Faithful to Christ. This is why there is a terrible attack on the Church right now from both within and without. At least those of you without don't pretend to be CAtholic,you are not hypocrites. Inside,there are many who posture and claim they are Catholic but are not;they lie. I believe that the most important thing Catholics can be doing right now is exposing those who say they are what they are not.I wish we had more help from those that who are united with us in Christ but just cannot see that the continuation of Western Civilization and Christianity hangs on the fate of the Catholic Church.
The one world order that you all recognize as something to be feared,is dependent on the destruction of the Catholic Church,if that goes no individual or entity can stop it. Of course God could intervene but He gives us every chance to do His will on earth and enjoy "Life Everlasting" with each other eternally.
For those of you who think we are in the end times,I can only say, even Christ did not know,only the Father knows. but I can say that I think God just may have another plan and that is,He is going to keep mankind around until they "catch on",no easy way out.
Have you been to earth?
What you are suggesting is the simplest form of easy-believerism. Anyone who at any time made a "decision" to get "saved" is always and forever saved? Is that what you are saying?
What I am suggesting is that all who wish to have the gift receive it. It may be possible (I am not sure, but it's conceivable) that , somewhere down the line, one might wish to part with that gift. If you do so, I do not think that you would be under the impression that you still possessed the gift.
Let me try to be clearer.
God's gift to us is that we may come home to Him. But it is His house. Obviously, He is not going to tolerate everything and anything going on in His house. So, as we bump our heads against God's rules (for His house) we will be faced with the decision ... do I really want to live here ? My point is that ... as long as we are willing to live within God's house, under His rules, He is delighted to have us be there with Him.
However, it may be that, at some point, we may decide that this is not for us, and knowingly leave God's house. I believe that, even as we were to advance toward such a decision, ... God would be working dilligently to convince us to stay ... that it's really for our good.
For these reasons, I do not believe that you could possibly reject your salvation without knowing that you have. Further, there has to be a world of difference between living with God and living without God.
People make what seem at the time to be sincere committments, but faith falters and people fall into sin.
Becoming a christian is not making a commitment ... it's accepting a gift. What commitments would you say that God calls upon believers to make ?
Do you fall into sin, Dave ?
When you do, ... have you rejected your salvation ?
If you believe that you have rejected your salvation by falling into sin, ... do you know that you cannot regain it, per scripture ?
I don't need a book to tell me that. I have eyes.
Let's flesh this out. What do you see, Dave, which leads you to the conclusion that people can lose their salvation ?
An honest answer, I have no idea what a Calvinist believes, and I don't understand why RC's love to wrap everyone up in a neat little package, put a name on him, and say, Oh, so your a so and so.
All though Catholics make the more interesting study, I look at all Christians as members of the church of Christ.
JH :-)
Q--Does scripture indicate that there are such (who would seem to suffering from spiritual insanity) ?
Indeed yes.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And, another thought, It might even come down to whether you feel you "have to" or whether you just want to.
Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
What does this mean to you, ventana?
OK, if you insist.
Both are saved, they know their own father, after all. One believes he does not "have to" but works because he "wants to" the second knows he has to, but then forgets, and does not.
It's an odd one to be sure, but Jesus is saying it's the one who acknowledges the instruction not the one who is actually fruitful, who is obedient to the word.
In other words, the ones who are not works based are the ones working for reward, while the ones who are, ostensibly, works based, are rewarded for loyalty, not work.
Ironic, no?
v.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Note (in verse 21) that JESUS does not say that those who enter the kingdom are those who have performed works to enter into it, but rather, ... those who have done the will of the Father.
When JESUS speaks to the multitudes on the subjext of the Bread of Life in John 6, the crowds ask JESUS ... What works must we do, that we might receive this Bread ?
JESUS answers them thusly, ... This is the work of God ... that you believe on Him whom He hath sent.
Note also (in the accompanying verses) that those who come to JESUS saying Lord, Lord (who He turns away) ... come testifying of various works they have done.
JESUS' response to them give us an idea of His reaction to those who come to Him claiming their works ... He says ... Depart from ME ... for I never knew you.
Not that they had not done works ... but that HE never knew them (indicating a lack of relationship).
Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
JESUS uses this parable to illustrate the difference in the kingdom-worthiness of the Pharisees and the everyday common Jewish folk.
What JESUS is saying is ... that it's not one's religious presentation that matters, it's one's openness to the will of God.
The Pharisees certainly looked better, religiously, than did the common people. After all, they were the ones who emphasized all of the works that they set upon the people.Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,OTOH, the common people loved JESUS, while the Pharisees were resistant to JESUS' message Therefore, JESUS said that the common people (including the publicans and harlots) would enter the kingdom before the Pharisees.
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
I'll take a crack at this. :-)
I don't the the absence of free will after Christians are resurrected could be considered tyrannical because by the time that happens Christians will already have ceded their will to God. God knows who will reject him...that's kind of what physical life is...a weeding out process of those who will never turn their will over to God and those who will.
Does that make sense?
Becky
I'm going to buy some "how to" books tomorrow and go shopping (but not to buy yet). Distance isn't a problem but I guess it depends on how long the horse can tolerate being in a trailer. Which brings up something I hadn't thought about. If I'm going to buy one in Aug I need to find a horse trailer first. Does it need to be enclosed? What should I look for health wise tomorrow and what's a normal price?
Ah...but the person who recieves the car could:
A: Accept it and never drive it.
B: Reject it and give it away.
C: Accept it, misuse and abuse it until it dies.
I think the "works" part of it would be taking care of it, washing it, gassing it up, etc.
Maybe this is what Dave is saying?
About your lack of horse sense?? No no not at all...I have no idea either :-)
I'm genuinely learning more about horses then I ever knew before. Becky has a story telling kind of way of teaching about them.
Actually my dad did buy more first car for me, a 1967 Pontiac Tempest that cost $450...and that's exactly how I treated it.:-)
I not about to make that mistake with the gift of God.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of young men are like that...we all want the car without the responsibility of owning one. :-)
[2]From the Arminian perspective, how could we know that no one in heaven will exercise free will (and free will is a part of being truly human and the only position consistent with a God of love, they say) and decide to leave heaven or choose to disobey. Would not the absence of free will in heaven be a tryannical action on the part of God?
As to point 1, that is fairly summarized. Personally, as one who believes the Bible displays what is known as the Arminian view, I follow Mr. Wesley's view that the free will is made possible by prevenient ("going before") grace sufficient to give each person a truly free and balanced choice, such that the result is not the "work" of the believer but the work of God effectuated by the exercise of the will of the believer.
Because in the evangelical church in the last few decades there has been a great move toward free will theism on the part of many coming out of Calvinism (who are put off by the "T-U-L-I" portion of the Calvinist "TULIP", but still attracted by the "P"), there have been some who have tried to reconcile OSAS (or 'eternal security') with a free will.
Personally, not only does 'eternal security' seem to directly contradict many passages of Scripture, it is hard to reconcile God's strong interest (as displayed in Scripture) in preserving and respecting man's free will out of His great love for His creatures, only to have Him perform a sort of spiritual root canal on the believer's will at the point of conversion.
As to point 2, the Bible tells us so little about the nature of Heaven and our own beings in Heaven, I have never found it necessary to speculate about the nature of our being there. We simply have no knowledge (apart from our imaginative speculations). There is no reason, however, that our beings could not be markedly different in Heaven than they are here on earth.
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