The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[CindyDawg]

You need to read it, daring to believe that you may have been lead astray, not refusing to see the plain truth.

I did. Do you remember me telling you that I used to believed OSAS because that's what I was taught. I just believed it as doctrine without opening the Bible. I don't do that anymore. When someone posts scripture to me I try to look it up and study. I test my faith all the time. If I found that I erred I make corrections. I'm just asking you to do the same.

[malakhi]

If death (whether of the guilty of a sacrifice) is not required

Its not. This is particularly made clear in the later prophets. Just one of many examples:

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings. (Hosea 6:6)

what is God doing with the Israelites in the Old Testament ?

Good question. What is the purpose of the sacrifice? Do we really think that God is somehow appeased for a sin by the killing of a lamb? In fact, we know that He is not:

The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,
but the prayer of the upright is his delight. (Proverbs 15:8)

So we can see that it is not the sacrifice itself that God desires, but rather what it is supposed to represent. Sacrifice without repentance is meaningless, and in fact, an "abomination". However, sacrifice can be a symbol of true repentance.

The question is, what sort of sacrifice does God truly desire, and why would He have established something different? Maimonides, the great Jewish philosopher and theologian, considered this question. In viewing the history of sacrifice in the scripture, he came to the conclusion that God was weaning Israel away from animal sacrifice. The Law regarding sacrifice grew progressively more restrictive. First, they could be offered anywhere, then later only in Jerusalem at the temple. Maimonides believed that God accepted the sacrifices as a concession to the wishes of the Israelites to offer sacrifices to Him as neighboring tribes did to their gods. (Remember Jesus saying that Moses permitted divorce "for your hardness of heart"? This is similar). As time passed, God revealed to Israel what He really desired.

For thou hast no delight in sacrifice;
were I to give a burnt offering, thou wouldst not be pleased.
The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Psalm 51:16-17)

With what shall I come before the LORD,
and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my first-born for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:6-8)

[SoothingDave]

You missed my point.

I don't think so. We've been here before once or twice. :-)

If I'm secure in my salvation, then I desire to do the Lord's work.

And if you are not secure, then you don't desire to do the work?

The bottom line is that when we persevere, we will be rewarded. If you have some need to believe you already persevered in order to motivate yourself, that is one thing.

But it does not change the truth that many who claim they are "saved" by a one-time declaration of faith, will not persevere.

SD

[Havoc]

Cool. Take me for a ride? LOL. I looked at a 96 1200c before the 2001. I really liked it; but, it sold before I could do anything.

[SoothingDave]

In viewing the history of sacrifice in the scripture, he came to the conclusion that God was weaning Israel away from animal sacrifice.

Yes, absolutely. So He trumped the very idea of animal sacrifice, and left us with a symbolic (so to speak) alternative sacrifice. We can now worship without the mess or smell.

SD

[CindyDawg]

So, let's change the subject then:'). What are you going to do for the Lord today? For me, I'm going to sign out now and go to work (which I should have done an hour ago)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The seat on my bike is made for one:). I had only been on a bike once or twice when Mack got our bikes Mine had this really ugly seat on it when we got it. So, when I ordered a new one I got a single seat, so that I would never have anyone talk me into giving them a ride:)

We had to lower it too, because I could not reach the ground when we first got it. I think it would be classified now as a hugger. I think it's a pretty neat looking bike. I added some chrome accessories.

The last time I rode it, a few weeks ago, Mack noticed that a bolt that holds the struts (I think that is what they are called:) to the back bumper is rubbing the tire. Yikes:!!! So it is parked till he gets it fixed.

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

Au contraire. Life insurance is nothing but a gamble. The company gambles that you will live long enough to pay premiums to make the final payment easy for them. You are gambling that your monthly premium will pay off more than some other investment will.

Absoloutely, positively wrong. At least in my case. When my financial obligation to the welfare of my wife and children was finished, my need for life insurance was finished. There simply was no other way I could guarantee they would be provided for.

[SoothingDave]

When my financial obligation to the welfare of my wife and children was finished, my need for life insurance was finished.

Sure, where there is no one you wish to benefit from your demise.

But that does not change in the least the argument that buying life insurance is indeed a gamble with a financial payoff. That was Doug's definition of a sin.

SD

[SoothingDave]

What are you going to do for the Lord today?

A good question. Thank you for asking. Have a good day at work.

SD

[Havoc]

If you'd have stuck a pen in my left hand a few days ago, I probably could have pulled off the impression. I actually made that quip to my mother on the way out of the Hospital.
Have to say she laughed pretty good.

[malakhi]

Well, what do you think about John 14:6.?

I think this sounds more Pauline than like Jesus.

The LORD is near to all who call upon Him,
to all who call upon Him in truth. (Psalm 145:18)

[DouglasKC]

But that does not change in the least the argument that buying life insurance is indeed a gamble with a financial payoff. That was Doug's definition of a sin.

I don't believe I ever said that. I answered that life insurance isn't a sin because you don't buy it out of covetness...the person who has life insurance on himself doesn't ever get to see the money if it pays off.

[DouglasKC]

I simply don't see this as an absolute as you do. Not all attempts to curry monetary advantage (even through "chance") are, by definition, "greed" or "coveting."

Sorry, I do. Gambling for money is all about possibly winning the money. If that weren't so then there would be no such place as Las Vegas and no market for casinos. It's total coveting. If it were just for entertainment than there would be entire cities built around video arcades.

[OLD REGGIE]

I recently took a Final Cut Pro training class. The guy that led the class was a college grad back in the days of punch cards. His graduating thesis was roughly 15 - 20 seconds of Mary Had a Little Lamb on punch cards (one of the first people to program music on a computer). He carried the thousands of cards around in a wagon on campus at Notre Dame.

Maybe, maybe not. Core memory was noisy. We used to open the cabinet door and place an AM radio close to the core and run cards through the card reader. We would then turn the dial to get the best sound. There were plenty of "music" decks of cards in the late 50's.

Chances are your "Professor" was as much a pioneer as Al Gore.

BTW, it took a mere handfull of cards to play 20 seconds of Mary Had A Little Lamb.

[DouglasKC]

Au contraire. Life insurance is nothing but a gamble. The company gambles that you will live long enough to pay premiums to make the final payment easy for them. You are gambling that your monthly premium will pay off more than some other investment will.
That you are dead when you collect doesn't really have a bearing on it. Your beneficiaries still receive the money. You "covet" it for the use of your family.

Maybe, but I have a hard time defining "covet" as something you wish others to have.

[DouglasKC]

He probably would have found much of what we moderns do to be wasteful. Like stroking our egos to end up posting on round number posts.

Oooh low blow...:-)

So do you think that Jesus would have gambled for money or condoned his disciples doing it?

[malakhi]

I ain't gonna sugar coat it for you, you deny that Jesus is God, and according to the New Teatament you don't make it to heaven. I wish it wasn't so for your sake, but it is.

I know you believe this, Mack. And you know that I don't agree. For that matter, there are even many other Christians who disagree with your interpretation of the Christian scriptures. I know that you say this because you genuinely care and are concerned for my salvation. I want you to know I appreciate that, even though I disagree with you.

But I trust in thee, O ,
I say, "Thou art my God." (Psalm 31:2)

Our soul waits for ;
He is our help and shield.
Yea, our heart is glad in Him,
because we trust in His holy Name. (Psalm 33:20-21)

O Sabaoth,
blessed is the man who trusts in Thee! (Psalm 84:12)

Trust in with all your heart,
and do not rely on your own insight.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
and He will make straight your paths. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for GOD is my strength and my song,
and He has become my salvation." (Isaiah 12:2)

[DouglasKC]

I apoligize for the offense. I will try to criticize gambling corporately and not personally.
It would be nice if you'd critisize it scripturally. After all you require it of others in here.

Okay gambling is coveting, which is a violation of the ten commandments. :-)

[Havoc]

Right. And this level of "discernment" is enough that you knew that the reverand in Wal-Mart needed to hear from you.

And your point is?

I fail to see the difference here between reading souls and having a "level of discernment."

Reading souls is telling whether one is saved or not - Discernment don't tell you that. Discernment tells you if there is an unclean spirit present and in some cases what type of spirit it is. And it's manifest in various ways. Moreover, Discernment isn't something the individual does, it something the HS does and makes known to a person. And finally in application - If you're a minister walking about town in a swamp of Demons instead of surrounded in angels, one should rightly surmise that something is most definitely wrong. Care to explore any more deeply into how wrong you read this or do you wish to continue running the length of the chain till it snaps you back to reality?