Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Do you have a scripture of this promise?
Jesus suffered for us and gained our redemption. Without the suffering, no redemption. Therefore suffering is redemptive.
This logic is sorta of like the logic that since Mary is Jesus' mother she is a co-redeemer.Yes, Jesus suffered, but the suffering was not what redeemed us. It was his death, His shed blood. Granted to get there He did suffer, but I don't see suffering as "redemptive." Suffering strengtens our faith, because we learn more and more to trust in Jesus. God did not remove Pauls "thorn in the flesh" to keep him weak which in turns kept him trusting in Jesus' rather then his own strengh, but that suffering did not redeem Paul.
Becky
21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court. 22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
Do you have a scripture of this promise?
Huh? I said "Suffering is not meaningless, suffering leads to greater good in the future."
Is this something you don't agree with? You don't see this depicted in Scripture anywhere? What about Job? What about Jesus?
Jesus suffered for us and gained our redemption. Without the suffering, no redemption. Therefore suffering is redemptive.
This logic is sorta of like the logic that since Mary is Jesus' mother she is a co-redeemer.
It comes from meditating on the meaning of Scripture, yes. I realize you hesitate to express any idea that isn't verbatim form Scripture, but I find this puzzling.
Yes, Jesus suffered, but the suffering was not what redeemed us. It was his death, His shed blood. Granted to get there He did suffer, but I don't see suffering as "redemptive."
You really can't seperate the two, no matter how hard you tried. Jesus didn't jsut "die" for us. He was tortured and suffered for us. That's not incidental or accidental. It is not meaningless.
Suffering strengtens our faith, because we learn more and more to trust in Jesus. God did not remove Pauls "thorn in the flesh" to keep him weak which in turns kept him trusting in Jesus' rather then his own strengh, but that suffering did not redeem Paul.
I think you are hung up on the word "redeem," because you believe in this salvation by faith thing. Since that is intractable, can you agree, as I gave an out earlier, that suffering helps to sanctify us?
SD
Well, since none of us believe that, that was an odd thing to think about. Try salvation by grace, through both faith and works, as two sides of the same coin. As cooperation with God's grace in order to bring about a person actually worthy of heaven, instead of a sinner merely "acquitted" of the charges.
SD
Havoc doesn't read auras. And, btw, Havoc is able to type again and is now back to work. So, if havoc needs to respond more fully to this tripe, havoc is entirely capable. Wish to do something more than throw misinformation?
You know what they say about messing with wounded animals..
SD
I don't read the state of anyone's souls either. Nor have I claimed this or anything akin to it. The only thing I've claimed is a level of discernment - and not of myself - has nothing to do with me. So, do desist. You're only making yourself look bad.
I recently took a Final Cut Pro training class. The guy that led the class was a college grad back in the days of punch cards. His graduating thesis was roughly 15 - 20 seconds of Mary Had a Little Lamb on punch cards (one of the first people to program music on a computer). He carried the thousands of cards around in a wagon on campus at Notre Dame.
Havoc is beginning to speak like Bob Dole. Man, that wreck must've really messed you up good. ;o)
Ah, recalling one of my worst nightmares. As an undergrad in the late seventies, I took a course on urban dynamics. It was a great course, developing models to test the effects of housing policies, tax policies, etc. on an urban environment. We, too, had to develop these fairly complex computer models on punch cards using a langauage known as ND-Tran, a specialized version of fortran.
Me being me, I had waited till the last few days to complete my major project and was over at the computer lab during finals week frantically typing out (punching out) the last set of formulas.
There was an intense thunderstorm that night. With completed project in hand, literally, I exited the building and tripped going down the steps. In order to cath myself on the handrail, I dropped my stack of roughly a hundred and fifty cards. A strong gale caught them and blew them literally all over campus. (I know, I know, why didn't I use a rubber band to secure them together?)
This gave rise to what my professor deemed the most creative excuse he had ever heard for turning in an assignment late:
The wind ate my homework."
Right. And this level of "discernment" is enough that you knew that the reverand in Wal-Mart needed to hear from you.
This is like you guys failing to see the difference between worship and veneration. I fail to see the difference here between reading souls and having a "level of discernment."
SD
Sorry, I've only heard tales. I once had to work on a non-WYSIWYG text editor in college. While I thought it was horrible, it has prepared me for html and Free Republic.
SD
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