Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Other then us not having to worry about not being in God’s kingdom, what do we who have eternal security fail to do, that you who have no idea what will happen at judgment day have to do?
Does it upset God that some have complete faith that they’re saved? Did John say that perfect love cast out all fear?
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.V-19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Because someone believes he is safe and his salvation is assured, does that mean that he slacks off, and stops doing good works?
Do those who haven’t enough faith to feel secure, try harder then we do?
What works of love do Catholics do that others who are secure in their salvation not do?
Catholics rituals of crossing them selves, praying through Mary, genuflecting, lighting candles, praying the rosary beads, taking the Eucharist every day, saying rote prayers, observing ash Wednesday, or even meatless Friday for some, and etc., do you consider these good works, and if you stopped doing them, would you most certainly end up in hell?
If you don’t consider these good works that God will credit you with on judgment day, then what works make you different and better then those who have eternal security that do good works also?
What negative effect does believing we’re secure have on a Christian?
JH :-)
Do you believe that we who have eternal salvation believe we no longer have to endure temptation, and can sin as much as we want because we already are secure?
How many sincere believers do you know that feel this way? I attend a church full of secure believers, and there the hardest working group I've ever been with.
Knowing we're already secure in our eternal life, does not flip off a switch inside of us, and we head for the TV and the couch with our remotes to wait for the end.
JH :-)
Sorry, I should have said "No better than the Pharisees Jesus accused of being hypocritcal". :-)
I apoligize for the offense. I will try to criticize gambling corporately and not personally.
I never thought you did.... :-)
I think the doctrine of OSAS comes with several built in risks. 1. that some people prone to sin might not work hard enough to secure their place, and so fall away, and become deaf to Jesus, and so lose the race, and , 2. that some who falter might erroneously might conclude that their faith was false from the first, and lose heart, and so lose the race.
I suspect that some do, as you put it, slack off, but I am quite as certain as you that the works of love that you do are pleasing to God. Scripture says, over and over, to fear the Lord, I guess you have to weigh that with John 4:18, but I worry more about the weak members of the flock than about you and the other strong ones.
Catholics rituals of crossing them selves, praying through Mary, genuflecting, lighting candles, praying the rosary beads, taking the Eucharist every day, saying rote prayers, observing ash Wednesday, or even meatless Friday for some, and etc., do you consider these good works, and if you stopped doing them, would you most certainly end up in hell?
These rituals, though far, far richer to me and other RC Faithful than your words intend to paint them, help me to keep focused on the Lord and his Kingdom, I consider them to be merely works against my own lazy, sinful nature, as well as providing a measure of apartness from what I see as a very corrupt world. As such, they will, I pray, indeed prove invaluable to me as I continue on this journey. Their only worth will be to sustain me to the end. Their only reward will be Eternal Life.
If you don't consider these good works that God will credit you with on judgment day, then what works make you different and better then those who have eternal security that do good works also?
All of us that persevere to receive the crown will be rewarded for the good we have done in fair measure. I personally feel that the mere words "well done, my good and faithful servant" are far more that I could ever deserve but that's what I'm shooting for anyway.
What negative effect does could believing we're secure have on a Christian?
I can not say with assurance what believing in something that is not true can do to you, it may have very positive effects for some but in others it may lead to complacency. The devil never rests. For those that teach OSAS, however, should they cause some to not attain, there may be unforseen negative consequences
v.
Many of the things that are you list are customs to remind us of our common faith and membership in the body of Christ. For instance we follow the Church calender to remind us that we belong to a society apart from the secular society, that we are a special people. The "rote" prayers we use have on one level the same purpose as such things as the pledge of allegiance or singing "good bless America "but they are are, in most cases superior to ad hoc prayers I have heard. The sign of the cross is a short prayer , an act of faith in the Blessed Trinity, and a reminder of baptism. I know it does not set well with Protestants, but I consider your faith altogether too wordy and your prayers short sermons. Why do you stand during prayers instead of bowing or kneeling? Surely this is simply a matter of custom.
The Eucharist is of an entirely different order of worship from these other practices. Daily communion is a fairly recent practice, but yearly communication is a requirement of the Church, a test of membership. Luther rejected the other sacraments,and to be sure they, at least in the form we know them are historical developments. Still he thought it clear that from the beginning there have been two great Christian rituals, baptism and the breaking of the bread. Will we go to hell if we stop taking communion? Yes, if we stop receiving it worthily. We live on bread and water, after all.
Oh, and for yalls information it's a little smiley gal :')
Well, I think I will just bow out and follow your and JH's threads. Very interesting. The only thing that I can add is that I do the works because I want to and not because I have to. CD
I'm not making the case that gambling in and of itself is wrong...I'm making the case that gambling for monetary gain is wrong whether you can afford to lose it or not.
I don't think the analogy of drinking and gambling hold up. You can gamble without it being about money, but it becomes wrong when you gamble for money.
There is a biblical precedent for drinking, but not getting drunk. And there are biblical precedents for "casting lots" (if you want to call that gambling) but not casting lots for money.
I would say that taking life insurance out for yourself is never a matter of personal greed or covetness because if you "win" you don't get the money anyways.
Thanks...I admire the Puritans commitment to God. :-)
I don't think going out to dinner is something that we need to spiritually grow into avoiding. God really doesn't mind if we eat, drink and be merry from time to time.
I don't think God mind either. But do you think that Jesus would have gambled for money or condoned his disciples doing it?
If it were written in scripture:
Matthew 22:17 So Peter went down to the gaming tables and cheerfully loseth his money to the gamers.
Matthew 22:18 So Jesus, seeing Peter sayeth "How did thou doest Peter? Did thou breaketh even?"
Somehow I don't think Jesus would have this attitude...do you?
I must insist on this: faith implies a confidence in a man’s mind, that the thing believed is really true; but, if it is once true, it never can be false. If it is true that God became man, what is the meaning of my anticipating a time when perhaps I shall not believe that God became man? This is nothing short of anticipating a time when I shall disbelieve a truth. And if I bargain to be allowed in time to come not to believe, or to doubt, that God became man, I am but asking to be allowed to doubt or disbelieve what I hold to be an eternal truth. I do not see the privilege of such a permission at all, or the meaning of wishing to secure it: if at present I have no doubt whatever about it, then I am but asking leave to fall into error; if at present I have doubts about it, then I do not believe it at present, that is, I have not faith. . . . I may love by halves, I may obey by halves; I cannot believe by halves: either I have faith, or I have it not.
Well, what do you think about John 14:6.?
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