The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[SoothingDave]

not a limitation on how God Himself can act.

I disagree. God is Just.

And merciful.

SD

[malakhi]

It is not merciful to punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

[malakhi]

Since Mack didn't respond to my post about John 5:24, what do you think?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

Looks to me that I am already saved.

[JohnnyM]

"It is not merciful to punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty."

Unless the innnocent willingly takes the place of the guilty.

JM

[Quester]

the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

I don't see how you can get around the plain meaning of this passage.

This is the justice (i.e. Old Testament) position. This does not take the grace of JESUS' sacrifice into account.

[OLD REGGIE]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

Looks to me that I am already saved.

I knew that!

Us UNIT......... gotta stick together.

[SoothingDave]

It is not merciful to punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

I never said it was.

But what of charity? What is charity other than us giving up our earned time or money to pay the debts of another? Is that "unjust?"

No.

Because it is voluntary. God would never randomly select someone and make him suffer for others. But He would come down and, as man, volunteer for the job.

SD

[JohnnyM]

"How many do you count?"

I dont really know. I have just recently been curious about the answer. I think Paul was the twelfth, but I cannot say 100% that he was. In studying this, I have been trying to look at the 12 tribes of Israel for light. They always refer to them as 12, but there are, in reality, 13. Joseph's poriton was given to his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which would make 13, but the Levites were God's portion to perform his service, so they are not counted in the inheritance in the land of Canaan (they are provided for by the other 12 tribes). So having 13 apostles, while having 12 foundation stones, would not be far fetched.

JM

[SoothingDave]

Looks to me that I am already saved.

If you persevere. Let's not forget that. If you persevere it will be proof of Christ working through you.

SD

[SoothingDave]

In studying this, I have been trying to look at the 12 tribes of Israel for light. They always refer to them as 12, but there are, in reality, 13.

Good point. There is precedence for this Almighty form of "fuzzy math."

(Take the traditional view of the Twelve selected from Israel, and Paul selected from the Gentiles as instructive as well.)

SD

[SoothingDave]

Paul selected from the Gentiles

Make that "for" the Gentiles. Don't want Reggie to have a heart attack.

SD

[CindyDawg]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

Whose word do you have to heareth? :') Dave, we need some help here. I know what's coming so why don't you please define heareth for us. lol

[malakhi]

Unless the innnocent willingly takes the place of the guilty.

I disagree. Even if the innocent is willing, it is unjust to punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty. That, in my opinion, is the significance of the verse in question. Let me ask you -- how do you reconcile Ezekiel 18:20 with your beliefs about the sacrificial death of Jesus?

[malakhi]

I knew that!

Thanks Reg! Now if we could just get Mack and Becky to agree, we could all join together in a rousing rendition of Kumbayah.

On second thought, maybe its better that we continue to disagree... ;o)

[SoothingDave]

Dave, we need some help here. I know what's coming so why don't you please define heareth for us.

"Heareth" is the opposite of "overthereth." :-)

(Both hearing and believing, in this case mean more than an intellectual assent, and a full flowering into action. It's not a one-time deal, it's a journey.)

SD

[CindyDawg]

(Both hearing and believing

BELIEVING! straight from your buddy. lol

[CindyDawg]

Thank you Dave. See above post

[SoothingDave]

Even if the innocent is willing, it is unjust to punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.

You have reached the entry point of this conversation again. Is charity unjust? In charity someone sacrifices himself and his property in order to help the unfortunate out of whatever predicament they may be in.

Is this unjust, this suffering for another? Should we instead let the poor suffer, cause taking on their "punishment" is wrong?

SD

[malakhi]

Whose word do you have to heareth? :')

Hey, on your little smiley guy, is he sticking his tongue out, or is that his nose? :')

Since I do consider Jesus a prophet, I don't have a problem with that referring to his teachings. What he taught was grounded in Judaism anyway.

Unfortunately, I don't think we have Jesus's teachings as he himself gave them. Rather, we have them filtered through the lens of Pauline theology.

[malakhi]

But what of charity? What is charity other than us giving up our earned time or money to pay the debts of another? Is that "unjust?" No. Because it is voluntary. God would never randomly select someone and make him suffer for others. But He would come down and, as man, volunteer for the job.

That's the best argument I've seen so far.

Still, I prefer the image of sacrifice as a symbol of reconciliation with God to one of placating an angry God.