The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[CindyDawg]

There are several passages in the NT that refer to being able to fall away, and lose your salvation, after having been Christian and having "tasted" the truth.

Would you please post them? OSAS isn't tradition with me. When I was younger, maybe but not now. It's scriptural but in addition to that I am also a witness. At one time I tried to "fall away". God let me know that I belonged to Him and would have no part of it.. He stayed with me and brought me back into the fold. That's why occasionally I toss a "are you sure?" to Malakhi :')

[SoothingDave]

You can be thrown out of the country, but you will forever be born an American.

Without doing your usual dance will you explain to me where a born American will be sent to when he is thrown out?

What are you on about now? Puerto Rico, Canada, Morocco, Switzerland, Australia, Korea.

It doesn't matter. It had nothing to do with my point. And I know you aren't that obtuse. The point is that someone who is born an American can never have that "bornness" revoked.

This is the same way Catholics view sacraments, like Baptism and Holy Orders. You can't make someone be "unborn in America." You can't "unbaptise" someone. And you can't "disorder" a priest.

SD

[SoothingDave]

So if a man has repeated his sin over a perioud of years, what's to stop your Church from giving him over to Satan, so God can work with them as Paul said?

Certainly someone who has repeated ofenses should be removed from the ministry. I think I've said this over and over and over.

When someone comes to confess his sins we take him at face value. We should not, however, put a person who has proven a danger in a position to do more harm.

Now someone obstinate in his sin, should indeed be given to Satan, which I take to be expelled from the community, or excomunicated as we would say.

So it would seem to matter if the person was attempting to avoid sin, or if he was too deep in to see his sin.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Chuck, what does celibacy have to do with child abuse? Are there no married men who sexually abuse children?

How many of the pedophile priests were homosexual ? Some?? All ??

Huh? It is your contention that abstaining from sex causes men to become gay?

Yes, this was a homosexual phenomenon, largely. The answer is to remove the homosexuals from the situation. Celibacy does not create homosexuality and married men can abuse children as well. Often their own.

SD

[drstevej]

John 3:¹⁵     That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 10:²⁸     And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Acts 13:⁴⁸     And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 6:²³      For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Is eternal life eternal?

Or is it...

• conditional life ?
• temporary life ?
• probationary life ?
• potential life ?

[SoothingDave]

Gotta love Dave's definition of "faith"

Dave: "To have no faith means that the person, OK, doesn't have, like, faith. That is, that he doesn't believe in God or Jesus or nothing."

Listen, friend, you don't know me nearly well enough to jusdge what I am saying, it is apparent. Here's a hint: the use of, OK, like, valley girl, um, locution is, you know, a sort of, like, sign that I was, you know, joking, OK?

SD

[SoothingDave]

So you think some of these guys are plants, or just used because of their deviancy by others with an agenda?

Both. There has been a considerate effort to avoid ordaining men who understood the faith. Instead the relatively ignorant and deviant were brought in cause the dissidents could shape them more easily.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Would one of yall tell me what you were talking about, and tell JH, I'm not talking to him any more ? :')

'tis quite simple. ipev refused to answer my simple question, the one that you and Becky had no problem answering. So I asked him repeatedly to answer. The current count is 7, 8 if you count this.

Jim decided that I was acting like the Pharisees questioning Jesus.

This struck me and odd. Malakhi, too. Both of us, independently, asked Jim if he was implying that ipev deserved some sort of immunity from questioning, like he was Jesus or something.

Jim laughed it off, as us just being silly. But the point was made and the questions remain unanswered.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Dave, my belief is that when a man begins to seek God, God sees his sincerity, whether he's sinning or not.

God judges his sincerity, and then calls him by giving him more information and more opportunities to begin learning and thinking of God.

When God knocks on his door, and he answers, then God gives him knowledge of his Son and his redeeming blood, and he's forgiven of all sin past present and future by His one sacrifice, and he’s given the Holy Spirit..

He then follows the Spirit that directs him to a belief that will start his growth toward God's kingdom.

By the time Christ has covered his sin, he has already begun to hate his past sins, and with the Holy Spirit in him, he should never have similar problems again.

So, you never, ever, repeat the same sins over and over? Even though you sincerely repent and strive to avoid them? You never end up repeating the same sins?

Becoming "holy" is a process not an instantaneous thing. Many good and decent faithful people struggle with sin.

If a man still sins continually as before, I find it hard to believe God would put His Spirit in a body that still has not turned from sin.

What if he sicerely desires to stop sinning, but keeps failing? Is that "continual"? Or is it "off and on"? Who is the judge of this?

A man who seems religious, but is still steeped in the same sin as before, I believe God is watching him and waiting for him to come to the point he can be called.

"Steeped"? I believe God comes to save us from sinful lives, but it may require time and effort.

SD

[malakhi]

If God saves them from their sin, then they will have no sin when they enter into the kingdom, and will have been cleansed.

Their sin may be forgiven, but they're still sinners, right? They are still capable of sin even after being saved. Just like an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, even if they've been sober for 10 years.

[SoothingDave]

Also, depending upon the compulsion to any particular sin ... I believe deliverance from such sin may come sooner or later. Pragmatically, I believe that the christian who is successfully dealing with their sin (through repentence and looking to the Lord for His way out) will experience a diminishing of said sin until said sin is expunged from his/her life.

That being said, I believe that a christian can, for a time, decide to leave their sin unattended to ... and so, commit such sin for an indefinite period. I also believe that God chastens His children in regard to their sin, in an effort to bring them to a point where they will deal with it.

Thank you for your thoughts. I find them quite reasonable.

The question at hand is ... how faithful are we in availing ourselves of that power (i.e. finding God's way out and taking it) ?

Good point. Some seem to view faith as something one either has or does not have. You recognize that it can be of varying strengths.

Are there some sins that a Christian cannot commit ?

Are there limitations to the Blood of Christ? Forgiveness is guaranteed for anything we may do, as long as we turn back toward God.

SD

[SoothingDave]

If God saves them from their sin, then they will have no sin when they enter into the kingdom, and will have been cleansed.

Their sin may be forgiven, but they're still sinners, right? They are still capable of sin even after being saved. Just like an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, even if they've been sober for 10 years.

I think Jim means after the final purification, after death.

SD

[SoothingDave]

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

As always, Steve, the question is not whether eternal life is eternal, but whether we are in the set of "whosoever believeth."

SD

[al_c]

It's a really nice bike.

Which model?

[SoothingDave]

, when He had by Himself[1] purged our[2] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

The Sacrifice of Christ was completely sufficient to satisfy the demand of God for punishment for sin and whereby Christ purged His sheep of all their sin.

So is it your contention that Jesus does not come into our world anymore? After all, as you have noted, He is now sitting at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is done acting in the world seems to be your argument.

SD

[malakhi]

You have freepmail, Mack.

[SoothingDave]

How could a Christian do something like this and if they did were they ever actually saved to begin with? I think about the mother that murdered her 5 children in Texas. Everyone around her had said she had been a good Christian and that mental illness related to pregnancy and the medication she was on caused her to go crazy. Rationalizing, maybe? Or another example. Someone is a born again christian when they are young but for whatever reason turns away and gets into drugs and ends up killing someone in college while stoned. I hear lots of stories where people were saved after they committed crimes but I can't remember any professing they were a chrisian when they did so. Have you?

Almost makes you want to re-examine your paradigm that we are "saved" by a one time declaration of faith. It is quite obvious that this young person who gets "born again" can follow one of two paths. If he commits a heinous crime later in life he can either repent or not. In the first case, the sin can still be forgiven. In the second, the sin and lack of repentence call into question the "validity" of the earlier "born again" experience.

It's almost like we have to persevere to the end.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Can you show me-in whichever books of Scripture you are accepting for this argument-where Jesus eliminated the Priesthood?

Why do Catholics need scripture for the elimination of a gentile priesthood, there's no scripture that a gentile priesthood ever started.

[SoothingDave]

To which my reply is, of course! Isn't that who he came to save? Didn't he come for the sick, not the healthy? Didn't he associate with tax collectors, prostitutes, sinners? What about Matthew, Mary Magdalene, the "good thief"? John 3:16 doesn't just apply to "good people", but to everyone, even the most depraved sinner. Who, after all, is more in need of salvation?

Exactly. The question at hand is will a person who has come to accept their savior become instantly changed into one who gives up even their most treasured and habitual sins? Or may it take some time to overcome these things, even a lifetime?

SD

[al_c]

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Friday, May 02, 2003
St. Athanasius, Bishop, Doctor of the Church (Memorial)

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Gospel:

Acts 5:34-42 Psalm 27:1, 4, 13-14 John 6:1-15 [God] gave Himself to us through His Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature.... For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.  -- St. Athanasius, Epistulae ad Serapionem

The following is, as usual, from The Word Among Us:

Have you ever experienced the indigestion that can come from eating while standing up or rushing around? Our bodies need to sit and relax while we eat and digest our food. The same is true for our spiritual digestion. We need to slow down and relax so that Jesus can feed our spirits. "Spiritual indigestion" can occur when we pray only while on the go. We can become drained by the pressures of our daily lives, and while our prayer to Jesus should be at all times, this is not necessarily the best quality time we can spend with him. Experience tells us how difficult it can be to hear God's voice and rest in his love when every moment of the day is hectic and rushed.

The people whom Jesus fed followed him to the mountainside because they were hungry for answers--for hope, purpose, and a personal encounter with God's love. They had many needs: Some were sick, and some were oppressed. For others, just surviving day-to-day was difficult. But Jesus saw all of their needs and answered them on every level. He had them sit down and rest so he could feed them. He gave them food to strengthen them for their trip home. He preached to them the good news of the kingdom. He even healed them physically, spiritually, and emotionally.

Two thousand years later, our lives are still demanding. Suffering is all around us. Everyone faces needs and pressures. It's easy to find our minds racing, even when we try to sit still and pray. And still, Jesus asks us to sit down, calm our minds, and receive from him.

One way to help you in prayer is to use your imagination. Picture yourself on the mountainside with Jesus and the apostles. Imagine that you are watching Jesus look to heaven as he asks his heavenly Father to bless the bread and fish. Then, watch as one of the apostles comes to offer you as much as you want. Let Jesus fill you with peace and joy as he promises to help you with each one of your needs.

"Jesus, I give you all the concerns on my mind right now. Help me to quiet my heart so that I can sit at your feet and share the banquet of your wisdom for my life."

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God bless.

AC